i would like to address this question to the american cockers out there. do you guys talk about whether the knife was aligned right or not when you try to analyze why your rooster lost? here in the philipines, it's so frustrating, and in fact we have constantly aired it in our tukaan tv program, that when our rooster wins, we sing praises to high heavens about just how good our cock was and how superior his attributes were. but when we lose, it's the gaffer's fault. i thought that i was already exempt from this biased attitudes but i feel so frustrated when even my close friends say those things each time our cock loses. it's so hard for them to accept that we simply just got outroostered. period. i'm not saying i'm above them because even me myself, i find myself sometimes acting the same way. just have to remind myself always.

[Kidd Sentencia]

I'm pinoy, well, but...hehehe.

IMHO: One should indeed need to learn all aspects of this passion and sport to include knife/knife tying. Of course picking the right gaffer means the trust is there and that the gaffer has all the experiences in his life to be chosen. To ensure you don't blame the poor man, go watch him tie the knife to your rooster, check the knife itself too. Say something there and then if you need to cause if anything not so good happens later, one's mouth-blabbing is just a little too late.

Kidd

[Camarines]

Most American cockers tie their own weapon, be it knife, gaff, or short knife. If they don't tie their own knife, it's either their friend or their handler.

[GoldenDragon]

thats true most of the time it is the gaffer who gets all the blame , since he is the last in the team to have anything to do with the fowl.

most of the time the blame is not substantiated, but there are also times
when it is.

of the workers in a team , the gaffer has his life on the line. he must also be licensed.
yet, his fee is still very much lower than the handler , why is that ?

cheers and mabuhay...

[victe]

1. If you use cotton tape, be sure its firmness is just right. not to elastic not so tight/hard. Be sure tha shoe paste (pagkit) is well distributed and no bulging along the surface. In piling the cotton tape, be sure its closely packed and almost no room for layer collapse. Be sure to place the Paunan(1" ~~5/16 dia. rod) in a very stable lock to the layers of cottontape and tie it as tight as the strings could allow to the right of the fork knife facing you. Be sure to tie the strings just enough so that the cock leg would not numb.

2.Be sure you use knife blade that has the right hardness to maintain the edge and avoid breakage and a tip that will withstands the whole duration of the fight. Be sure to design your knife to kill in just one good blow, one that penetrates and not just a big gash.

3. Be sure to install the knife such that it will not interfere too much with the cocks overall balance when it flies, stop, weave.and jumps. Align the knife not according to any other theories but on one that you have repeatably done to kill in one goodblow.

I dont see any reason why we should blame the gaffer/knife tier if he will at least do the basics and even better than the basics.


tsirs!

victe

Originally posted by emoy:
i would like to address this question to the american cockers out there. do you guys talk about whether the knife was aligned right or not when you try to analyze why your rooster lost? here in the philipines, it's so frustrating, and in fact we have constantly aired it in our tukaan tv program, that when our rooster wins, we sing praises to high heavens about just how good our cock was and how superior his attributes were. but when we lose, it's the gaffer's fault. i thought that i was already exempt from this biased attitudes but i feel so frustrated when even my close friends say those things each time our cock loses. it's so hard for them to accept that we simply just got outroostered. period. i'm not saying i'm above them because even me myself, i find myself sometimes acting the same way. just have to remind myself always.

emoy,americans tie their own knives.and they are not the best gaffers.they usually win[the championship] by "palakasan sa promoter" who is usually american or they are the promoter themselves.i don't think they have the skill compared to a pinoy about knives.i'm talking from knife making to knife tying.they are good in making gaffs though which are just a piece of pointed wire.but knives, whether fork or socket?forget it man!i don't know why majority of pinoy sabungeros still look up to our american counterpart in all aspects of sabong.the sad thing is they[americans]know that you[pinoys] look up to them.it's about time to keep to ourselves that pinoys are the best cockers in the world.i learned this the first time i entered a sabungan here in the united states.emoy,i know that i went beyond
what you're asking but it's all kind a related topics.the only problem of a pinoy gaffer here in the US is a skilled "basyador".there's an american in one of the pit here who thinks that he is a good basyador[i wish he see an skilled pilipino basyador].and guess what?a lot of pinoys think he's a good one.kawawa ang manok, ang daming palo talo pa!peace!

[Pinolim]

This all boils down to trust. You chose your
gaffer and you have your own reasons why among the many good ones and pretenders you pick him. Common criteria are honesty, integrity and their win/loss ratio, and observation as to how efficient the cock killed its opponent on fights other than your cock. All of my losses came from having been hit seriously on the first buckle but when we connect and my gaffer says "we got 'em" I do believe him. There was even an incident when I was matched with a good friend, his championship fight and my would be last fight but will be my 3rd win and we had the same gaffer. They will not give him up, neither do I, so He was forced to gaff both cocks, mine first, my friend's next.My gaffer will have 20% of championship money if my friend becomes the champion but he remained neutral, my cock won in the drag....6 minutes of give and take that is why I have complete trust in my gaffer.
Trust is the word!!

------------------
4got10cocker

yeah, i saw the americans put their gaffs and on my own opinion the pinoys are still the best, i wish i can bring one of my best friend from p.i. we can win a lot of money here!!!

it is when one lose that one seeks outlet of frustrations and dismay.an outlet where we can temporarily unleash our excuses and non-acceptance of defeat.mostly poor uneducated knife tyers in the philippines fall victim in this passing the blame case when rich owners of cocks begin to behave uncivilized and start looking for an scapegoat.to avoid this nasty situation to happen in my opinion the owner of the cock should be able to describe more clearly about the fighting style of his cock to the knife tyer who happens to know nothing about his cock.i always fight cocks that always try to top their opponents whenever they meet in the air.i`ll describe this to the knife tyer and he`ll automatically get a beautiful razor sharp well CURVED knife.the degree of curve inclination is very important for those fowl that hits a lot in the air.if this is not the case then include the knife tyer as member of your battlecock selection committee who will conduct the garding of fighting stle of each cock enterd in the selection process.in this point the knife tyer will acquire a bunch of ideas on what type of knife(high or medium point)he will use on each cock.the knife tyer takes note of the fighting ability of each cock and write it under cocks identification number(wing and leg band).these numbers are also put outside the door of each stall to avoid stress in looking which cock has its turn.this is helpful in cockhouse in pit.whenever i lose a fight i always first blame myself for the wrong conditioning method.the cock has not achieved his peak condition and thus was not able to play his best to the fullest.when a cock is not in best condition the rhythym of shuffling and all the timing are poor and not synchronized.but if my well conditioned cock is able to hit first his opponent and nothing positive happens then i`ll put my suspicion on the man that ties the knife.but that is not the case nowadays.although i am now knowledgeable and capable of tying a knife yet i still don`t do it due to laziness.i just personally select and get the type of knife i want out of knife tyers box and i let him do the job.let`s say trust on both sides.but after tying the knife i personally inspect the allignment of it.i think selecting and inspecting the knife tied are enough for me.and then i personally pit my cock in the hard ground cause i personally know how and when i would position my cock when i turn him loose.i still use the narraggansett method and expect that my rooster would score quickly.

If the losses come like raindrops from heaven then it may be time to question your gaffers ability, particularly if you feel and see that your birds are not mediocre.

But then, take my case as an example. The last quarter of this year, we were winning around 68 - 70 % of our hackfights. I trust my gaffer. We've been together for more than 4 years now. Last December, we were fighting our 3 year old bulik. A two time winner unscathed. Winner of a fastest kill award at that. Our bird was at its peak, we were already favored to win even before the knives were tied. On the first buckle, we saw our birds connect with a blow sending the other birds back, fliping landing on its head. While in this possition, our bird gave four successive shuffles, long ones. The opponent just rolled around head first without being able to retaliate. Our bird again went for a shuffle and connected coz we saw feathers flying up from the opponents body and the force of the impact from my birds blow again caused the other bird to flip backwards and roll on its head. I thought we already won, but lo and behold, our opponent was still able to stand up and cripple our bird and eventually won. On the doctors lap, we checked the other fowl and observed that the wounds were superficial, no gash, no slahed flesh just tiny shallow pricks, lots of them, all over the cocks body.

None of the wounds could disable the bird, if at all, it only served to infuriate it and caused it to be more vicious and more aggresive.

Now, do I have a right to questiong my gaffer that day?




[This message has been edited by esjleaf (edited 01-07-2002).]

[Draven51501]

esjleaf,
definitely, you have every right to ask him, YOU'RE THE OWNER!!!, if the fight was how you exactly descibed it. how can he explain the outcome when your bird was creaming the other cock in the first buckles.

http://www.theadvocate.com/NEWS/imag...6/06fight3.jpg
maybe the knife was tied this sloppyly and on the wrong leg...[img]//sabong.com.ph/UbbNonCgi/smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[This message has been edited by Draven51501 (edited 01-07-2002).]

that also happened to me,was also fighting bulik buwaya color.it was a 6x winner and was being used as a broodcock,about 4 years old.we conditioned the best way we could.on the pit before final bitaw i set him on the ground and began to walk.i noticed that he was not properly drawing his feet up when he walked.suddenly an uneasy feeling but couldn`t remember what an old said me about it.it was too late when i remember that my cock crossed the borderline of being too dry.too dry that it affected the cutting ability .he shredded the opponent with shuffles and at the end my cock was the one gasping for his last breath.too dry that even though he made all the shuffles he didn`t able to connnect one that would and should penetrate.he was too dry that he couldn`t stretch his legs and feet to reach and score.and the opponent was able to unleashed during his non stop shuffling one kick that was really fatal.the high point which earned him his 6x win was not effective at that day cause he just couldn`t stretch his thighs and feet well.and he was 4 years old at that time and maybe his speed and muscle elasticity had already diminished.but i still got his sons still winning for me.the origin of the bulik cock was from a bulik hen sired by multiple winner ruble broodcock.

[Sundowner]

Kasador, I agree with your theory about your cock being too dry. Not maintaining proper body moisture will have propound effect on agility and cutting ability of the bird. Also, putting a brood cock with the hen for a extended period will have that daunting mental anguish that lingers being in state of solitude. Good example is the Kolasisi. They even commet suicide by not eating or dringking. This is thier natural instinct Thus, mental alertness has diminished to some extent. It is unfortunate that the gaffer is always the scapegoat when the rooster lost. Yet in a derby, the handler have a bigger share when they win and all he does is release the bird. Any gaffer will try his very best to satisfy his client because, he too wants to take home some beacon for his family. However, as you mentioned earlier, if the bird is not cutting because of moisture problem, the gaffer cannot do anything but pray. Any civilized cockers should understand this. Adios amigos…and good luck.


------------------
Sonny



[This message has been edited by Sundowner (edited 01-08-2002).]

[Kidd Sentencia]

On shares for Handler and Gaffer, it is presumed that the Handler took care, raised, and conditioned the cocks for many months or weeks so the prize sharing is usually higher for him/her. He is the one that should be "in" there too in pointing period up to the release to fight.

IMHO,

Kidd

[Rigolleto]

The only time you can blame the gaffer is a) if the blade went out of alignment after the fight, meaning it was not tied properly b) blade broke during the fight or was too dull after the fight meaning inferior material was used in making the knife. It is good practice to check the blade on your cock after every fight, win or loose, just to keep your gaffer honest. If these conditions are not present after your cock has performed and still lost the fight, you should not blame the gaffer as he has done his job but your cock may have not. Also some cocks are hard to hit, we had a 12 time winner bulik that was never seriously wounded even when it appeared that he was showered with blows and shuffles by his oponents in some of his fights, does this mean that the gaffers of the other cocks did not do their job, I do not think so.

[This message has been edited by Rigolleto (edited 01-08-2002).]

[EAA Indians]

You can blame it on the gaffer, but some of us neglect to maintain the point of the bird during fight day. Birds that are NOT pointed properly seem like they are cutting deep but in reality those birds are not fully extending when they strike. Meaning the wounds are superficial or not deep enough to put away the opponent. An additional cause is when the cock goes over the pointing peak. It is very difficult to bring back the bird to its peak.

courtesy of emoy and banderado

Is there any association for gaffers? Wherein he will be penalized for wrongdoings? It is also where he will be taught good ethics and conduct in doing this kind of business.

"The opponents rooster is no match, we had the number of connected feet thrown on breaks and shuffles, but what went wrong, I simply cannot understand why it happenned?"

This usually happens to us, right? Our chicken gave his most spectacular fight we never imagined for him to perform. With all those hardhitting shuffles, in the end, luck was not on our side.

Is it that luck chose to go with our opponent or our gaffer blew our luck away?

The simple answer, I guess, to thrash the pin pointing is to learn to tie a knife. Period! else, blame yourself!!!!

[banderado84]

.....when that happened...i think you have to first inspect the tare installation kung umikot....then the tare tip if it holds and also the knife edge if it folds....coz when those happened no way it could hurt the other cock except when it goes through kalambutan or the eyes pupil....slim chance specially against those strong/thick feathered rooster. mho

[Draven51501]

it's not only the knife, don't forget to take note on where those long, hard, powerful shuffles are going.. a rooster may shuffle long and hard but the opponent may be weaving and your rooster may be hitting only air..

[Leocadio408]

When your bird loses, I think its a natural reaction to overreact and find excuses as to how your battle cock lost. I think one point we must take into consideration is not only how the bird lost, but why? Maybe the other cock was sharper, more determined, better conditioned, smarter and just overall the better cock on that given fight. I've seen many fights where like other posters have said, one bird was cutting "short" not extending his legs, he just wasnt sharp but the bird was shuffling like hell, but he just was not cutting. It could be the knifemans fault, it could be bad luck, but it also could be that your bird just wasnt right, he wasnt sharp and finally met his match against a better rooster!

[cutfreak]

Blaiming a gaffer is sometimes valid. For instance there is a case when the tari breaks--quality issue. Another is in the case of a tari that did not hold to its proper allignment---Tamad na mananari sa pag-alaga ng mga sapin, kulang sa dikit. The rest I believe is the owmer's resposibility to point out if the knife is too long etc.

[romo1409]

I would blame myself first before I blame any gaffers.If you are a heavy bettor, learn to tie your own knife or bring with you a good well paid gaffer. No excuses.

[Bty Hunter]

Gotta blame somebody else when we lose but ouselves..like kesyo...
pangit yung nakatabi mo sa jeep..
may naghihintay sa'yo sa bahay..
natrapik kayo papuntang sabungan dahil may ililibing sa unahan..
di mo nasuot yung bwenas mong t-shirt..
nagulangan ka sa ulot...
ginulangan ka sa karyo...

PERO bago mo binitiwan iyong manok..wala kang bahid ng pag-aalinlangan..all of the above never occurred to you..only after the fact...SOLUTION , stay home and don't sabong hehehe:lol: :lol:

[Sundowner]

I respect everybody’s input and personal view on the subject. However, it is important to note that gaffer’s are relying on the positive out come of the fight every time he tie the knife so that he can bring some bacon home for his family. I know a middle age Filipino man in Guam who supported his son in college (now a successful engineer in P.I.) making extra money as a Gaffer. Often times, when the rooster is not cutting and eventually lost the fight, the knifeman is always the first one to get blame. Now, how many times we have witnessed a fight that the favorite cock is about to win, shuffling and hitting with authority, yet the opposing cock emerged as a winner because of that lucky paunch. That’s the reason why these sport is so exciting to watch because nobody can really dominate it and even the mediocre can have an equal chance to win at any given day as long as luck is in his side. In retrospect, it all boils down to" how and why", is anybody's guess to look for an answer. Bro Emoy, keep up the “Good Work” my main man..

[bulangero]

The only time I would blame my mananari (gaffer) would be when the tari breaks (tip, halfway or at the base). That means he does not maintain his weapon well or keeps using one until it breaks.

I'm also one who rewards my mananari almost the same as my handler believing that half of the factor of my cock winning its fight is on how the gaffer sets the weapon well.

There are good gaffers that all it takes is one solid blow of your cock and its finishing time. Even if your fighter is behind you can still win with that one solid retaliation shuffle.

WE AMERICANS DO ASK OURSELVES THOSE QUESTIONS LIKE WHAT WENT WRONG WAS THE KNIFE OR GAVE NOT TIED CORRECTLY?I CONDITION TIE AND HANDLE MY OWN ROOSTERS SO I'VE NEVER GOT ANYONE ELSE TO BLAME.BUT WITH MY EXPERIENCE I HAVE CAME TO SEE THAT LOSEING A FIGHT CAN COME FROM MANY A REASONS. BAD CONDITIONING/IMPROPER TIEING/BAD HANDLING ALLOWING YOUR APPONENT TO OUT SMART YOU OR IMPROPER USE OF MEDS IN YOUR FOWL.BUT IF YOU WATCH THE FIGHT CLOSE ENOUGH YOU'LL SEE THE REASON YOU LOOSE ESPECIALLY IF YOUR THE HANDLER.IF A ROOSTERS REACHING BUT NOT CUTTING IT COULD BE THE WEAPON YOU ARE USEING IS TIED ON INCORRECT OR YOUR USING AWEAPON THAT HAS THE WRONG SET TO IT FOR THAT PARTICULAR ROOSTER.IF HES NOT REACHING GOOD HES PROBABLY TO TIGHT OR TO DOPED UP THE FEEDERS FAUGHT.

THATS JUST MY OPPINION BUT THOSE ARE LIKE .....HOLES EVERYONES GOT ONE

AVERYCOCK
AND I ALSO BELEIVE ICAN TIE THE KNIFE OR GAFF SOCKET OR FORK JUST AS GOOD AS ANYONE ELSE:crazy:

WE AMERICANS DO ASK OURSELVES THOSE QUESTIONS LIKE WHAT WENT WRONG WAS THE KNIFE OR gaff NOT TIED CORRECTLY?I CONDITION TIE AND HANDLE MY OWN ROOSTERS SO I'VE NEVER GOT ANYONE ELSE TO BLAME.BUT WITH MY EXPERIENCE I HAVE CAME TO SEE THAT LOSEING A FIGHT CAN COME FROM MANY A REASONS. BAD CONDITIONING/IMPROPER TIEING/BAD HANDLING ALLOWING YOUR APPONENT TO OUT SMART YOU OR IMPROPER USE OF MEDS IN YOUR FOWL.BUT IF YOU WATCH THE FIGHT CLOSE ENOUGH YOU'LL SEE THE REASON YOU LOSE ESPECIALLY IF YOUR THE HANDLER.IF A ROOSTERS REACHING BUT NOT CUTTING IT COULD BE THE WEAPON YOU ARE USEING IS TIED ON INCORRECT OR YOUR USING A WEAPON THAT HAS THE WRONG SET TO IT FOR THAT PARTICULAR ROOSTER.IF HES NOT REACHING GOOD HES PROBABLY TO TIGHT OR TO DOPED UP THE FEEDERS FAUGHT.

THATS JUST MY OPPINION BUT THOSE ARE LIKE .....HOLES EVERYONES GOT ONE

AVERYCOCK
AND I ALSO BELEIVE ICAN TIE THE KNIFE OR GAFF SOCKET OR FORK JUST AS GOOD AS ANYONE ELSE:crazy:

i still believed that no one should be blamed when our ace cock lost a fight. it is the call of time for a cock to win or lose a fight... a cock can still win a fight by a single blow even he already received multiple stabs from his opponent...though all of us believes that a cock must possess all the good characteristics to be a winner this does not mean an assurance that he will win when we fight him... i believed in destiny...if our cock is destined to win, he can win even with 10 deep stabs.