[the_cure]

Fork Knife- Wrap= 70+ Inches ,Time Consume= 6+ Minutes, Impact= Light,Damages= Tolerable If not hit in the vital organs,Weight= Heavy due to the thickness of the wrap, Chances of moving= Very High.

Adjustable Socket Knife- Wrap= 10 TO 15 Inches , Time Consume= 2 TO 3 Minutes, Impact= Hard, Damages= Severe if hit anywhere, Weight= Light, Chances of Moving= Not at all.



[This message has been edited by the_cure (edited 08-27-2001).]

[Kidd Sentencia]

the_cure, I'll teach you how to edit your post so it won't show all your "edited by..."

When you edit for the second time, delete the words that says you edited it already. Do that on next, 3rd, 4th, etc, edits too. That way your post won't have too much "Edited by..."

Your analysis on the fork knife is biasedly yours...nothing wrong with that. One for sure is you used too much wrapping (70+ inches).

Sundowner, do you use this much wrapping? I doubt it.

(Sundowner is a professional fork knife gaffer...one of the best...hehehe).

Kidd

[Sentenciador]

the_cure,

And one more thing: PLEASE DON'T SHOUT!

[victe]

Mine dont need any wrappings. its leather directly in contact with the shank and spur. Fixed and not adjustable. You can tie a wire without adding too much weight. Tying time is always less than a minute! safety is almost 100% since you can tie it with scabbard (SP)or bayna in it!

[Sundowner]

Kidd, thanks for the humble compliments. Here’s my answer to your question .
I used a 55 to 60 inches of sticky cloth padding for Filipino Fork Knife with
one inch round wood about the size of a pencil in diameter for pa-unan.
The string is of high quality pure cotton about 25 feet long. Although the Socket
Knife has a slight advantage in weight, I still prepare to use the Filipino Fork.
(a matter of preference). I have used both including the one inch Mexican short Knife.
I may attest that neither the Filipino Fork Knife nor the Socket has the advantage
on the impact or severity as far as the damage is concern. I have witnessed a Short
Knife Derby in Mexico killing the opponent in one fly. The initial inception of
Socket Knife was designed of that Gaff pattern. Hence, a number of fights went to
Drag Pit. This is what I have observed the first time I attended the Duke Halsey’s
Tribute in Texoma. Majority of American entries are using Socket, while the Filipinos are using Fork Knife. Guess who won the overall ? It was an American local breeder financed by a Filipino/Hawaiian group. They used a Filipino Fork Knife.
The popularity of Knife Derby has revolutionized the used of Socket Knife among Americans and Filipino alike. However, to be more competitive, tremendous improvement on the pattern was adapted to that of Filipino angle. A friend of mine
personally went to Killingsworth to have his Socket done like a Filipino pattern. He
is very satisfied with the result because He won a day money derby in Copper State first time he used it. An American cocker bought Serge Capistrano’s prototype Socket in Copper State and won with it. Vons has proven his Socket Knife in big fights also.
Time spent in tying Knife is no longer a factor and has no bearing whatsoever. Nowadays,Even a Fork Knife can be accomplished in a timely manner using a botana which is normally use in Mexican Short Knife. Quality materials being used is paramount to achieved stability and firmness in tying. My honest opinion in using the ideal weapon depend on the fighting
style of the bird. I usually ask the owner about this before I proceed to heel. I used
1/8 shorter Knife than usual length on a multiple shuffler bird with regular curve (medium point). This is to minimize the Knife being hanged. On a flyer, I will recommend a high point Knife. Length is a matter of choice. This is all for today.and good day.


------------------
Sonny



[This message has been edited by Sundowner (edited 08-22-2001).]

[Kidd Sentencia]

Maraming salamat, Mr. Sundowner...sigurado akong merong natutunan ang mga readers dito sa post mo. Ang sunod na tanong:

Gaano tatagal ang isang magandang tari. Halimbawa, yung mga gamit mo. Ilang laban or taon bago mo ito i-retire. Siempre, pag laos na hindi na pwede, I mean kung bungal na eh hindi mo na itatari, di ba. Ang ibig kong sabihin eh para hindi "huli na ang lahat" blues, papaano mo malalaman na panahon na para isabit sa dingding si magandang tari.

Kidd

[Sundowner]

Kidd, ang katutuhanan ay bawat mananari ay mayrong paboritong tari. Buenas wika nga. Noong active pa ako, dala-dala ko ang hasa-an ko at kung misan at pag may time nag babasyada rin ako for $5.00 a piece. Lalo na kung talonan siempre kailangan ang pangbayad sa Hotel. Kung minsan naman pag kaibigan ang nag papahasa ay libri na rin dependi sa dami. Pero maniwala ka I gained more reputable breeder like Oscar Aikins at pag nag pahasa siya ay hindi ko na sinisingil. Pa pipili-in na lang ako ng isa sa mga manok niya na either nanalo na o hindi pa nailaban. Pag may korsunada naman siya sa mga tari ko papipili-in ko rin. Kung minsan nga ginagamit pa ako ng ibang close friend ko para lang maka kuha ng bloodline. Wika nga PR ang importanti. Mabalik tayo sa tanong mo. May oras na talagang e-retire ang tari dahil nag kakaro-on din ng metal fatigue ito at mahirap na pag nabali-an lalo na pag money fight. Nangyari na sa akin ito at ginamit ko ang tari over and over dahil nagkata-on na suerti at sukat sa lahat na entry ko. Kaya pagka gamit hasa. kaya nang money fight hasa na naman. Na over confidence at wala pang talo medyo naging manipis at dahil sa high speed cobalt sumobra ang pagka brittle dahil umi-init din pag hinahasa. Pag hindi mo na agapan ay siguradong mapuputol lalo na kung ikakabit mo sa power cock. Ang gina gawa ko ay pinapaltan ko na lang ang blade at mahal din kasi ang quality fork lalo na yong gawa sa Villadolid. Hope I have a viable answer to your questions.. Buti pa yata Japanese kawayan na lang ang ikabit siguradong walang bali..he..he

------------------
Sonny

[This message has been edited by Sundowner (edited 08-23-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Sundowner (edited 08-24-2001).]

[jlbs72]

Sundowner,

Pag nagkita tayo sa january derby turuan mo naman akong magtari ? Sa tingin ko kasi, may advantage din kung ikaw mismo ang magtatari ng manok mo. Isang disadvantage lang ang nakikita ko pag ikaw ang nagtari sa alaga mo... Wala kang mananaring sisisihin pag natalo ka, he...he...he...

[the_cure]

i'm using an adjustable socket knife not the socket knife used by the americans that can be acquired through VON knives or any of the advertiser from the gamecock. and the style of the blade i used is somewhat like of the nite owl's (KAJUN CUTO) pattern but not actually the same. there are only two sizes i uses: 2&5/8 and 2&3/4. I used the reverted setting or the "duling". i have experimented with different kinds of knives,different styles,different settings, w/boots, all of them, including all "partidas". and basing on my experience the adjustable socket knife is the BEST. and the style of the blade created a five-finger type of wound.

[victe]

A five finger wound... credit most of it to the knife's design. This would give a disabling wound and most of the time not an instant retirement.


A half finger wound... Credit most of it to the Mananari, usually a deep mortal wound that most of the time give an instant retirerment. See ya!


tsirs!

victe

[Kidd Sentencia]

Maraming salamat ulit, Sundowner...galing talaga ng mga info at kuwento mo.

the_cure: where do you fight? sounds like somewhere in states...just say which country or state...pls.

Victe: Ayos ang analysis mo...Eng'r!

Kidd

[the_cure]

kid sentencia:
i'm from the philippines, and i fought from the tupadas to the local derby's in our place. but it is in the tupadas that you will learn all the "hocus powkoz" if you know what i mean by this. dito ka talaga mahahasa, kasi ang mga makalaban mo dito ay yong mga wala talagang inaatupag kundi ang pagsusugal. ang ibig kong sabihin yong mga matching na hindi mo makikita sa mga big time derby's, yung mga imposible. for example
kung me manok na hindi pa nakatapos mag moult yung mga wala pang pakpak masyado ay inilalaban na, basta ang iyong manok kung ito'ay siyang makalaban sa manok na yaon ay papayag ka na puputulan muna ng balahibo sa pakpak niya. so dito mo masusubukan ang galing ng iyong tari, hindi ng iyong manok. pero ang mga manok na dinadala ko dito ay yung hindi ko sariling breeding, yun mga binili ko lang sa local market. kasi sayang naman kung dito mo ilalaban ang mga breeding mo, e ang tari lang naman ang tinesting natin in the first place. dito ko lang tinestingan kung talagang magaling ang weapon na ginagamit ko kahit hindi magaling ang manok. at pagkatapos dito ay doon naman sa cockpit. so kung matalo man hindi gaanong malaki ang talo mo. saka mo na pustahan ng malaki kung tested mo na ito kagaya ng breeding mo. kung mataas ang percentage win kahit putol ang pakpak ano pa kaya kung magaling at kumpleto na ang inilalaban mo na manok.

[Kidd Sentencia]

the_cur,

Been there, done that...ranggu na rin ako...hehehe.

Kidd

[Sundowner]

Siempre naman jlbs72. Basta intrisado ka at dedicated. Sa katutuhanan lang marami na rin akong tinoru-ang kabata-an dito sa SD. Yong Ina nga ng isang bata ay tuwang tuwa, dahil tuluyang tumiwalag sa gang noong maluko sa manok. Itong bata ay ulila sa ama kaya lang napa barkada at panay sabit in and out sa juvenile jail. Naka buti yong bakasyon sa Pinas at medyo na expose sa sabong. Kaya pag balik sa SD nag-order ng manok at si Inay ang pinag bayad. Walang mapag lagyan si manok kaya naki-usap sa akin si Inay kung pueding ma accomodate ko. Siempre sa primero medyo alangan ako, pero noong huli naging close sa akin. Sa madaling salita malaking pinagbago. Yong isa naman gumaling sa pananari at pag wala akong time siya ang ni rerecomend ko. Basta ang payo ko lang sa kanila ay huwag sumali sa mga kalukuhan gaya ng fix fight, at yang pera ay very tempted. Pero once na masira ka, it is all over. Ang naging papel ko ay hindi lang pagtuturo sa pananari (free charge) kundi naging adviser na rin. Ang maipapayo ko sa iyo sa ngayon jlbs72 ay mag ompisa ka sa mga tupada gaya ng ginagawa ni The_Cure. Yong mga manok palingki muna at maliitan lang ang pusta. Tama ang sabi mo na mas mabuting ikaw ang manari sa manok mo para walang sisihan. Kaya ako nag aral na ring mag conditon at mag handle sa kaibigan kong Cano tutal marunong naman akong manari, kaya walng probelima. Siempre sa mga big derby tulad ng Jumper tribute hindi ko rin kaya ang pot money at may kalakihan din. Kaya kung misan nag hahanap din ako ng financer. O kaya sama-sama na lang kami ng tropa. Alam mo natuto akong manari siguro 14 o 15 years old ako noon, at almost every weekend ang tupada namin ng barkada ko. Kung minsan sasakay pa kami ng bangka walang motor (sagwan lang) tatawid ng ilog dala ang mga stag para mag tupada. Pag wala ng pang pusta, bali manok na lang. Pero masaya lalo na pag panalo dahil masarap sinampalukan ang batang talunan. May nakalaban kami white at olikba item ang laman pati mata item. Hindi naman Z.white dahil wala pa naman Z white noon at ito ay tagalogin ang pustura pero hindi pungos. Limang besis kaming tinalo. Siempre pag nasugatan ang stag namin e either kakalas o mamatay. Pag yong olikba naman ang nasugatan ay lalong tumatapang. May naka pag sabi sa amin na may dugong Montella (imported) ang ama at galing pala sa Bacolod at ang hen ay white olikba. Ang masakit pa nito, akala namin ay stag, yon pala two years old na at bansot (batiti) ang tawag nila, meaning bata pa ay himas na, kayas na kayas ang tahid, at ina applayan pa ng oil ang feet para hindi mahalatang matanda na. Dahil siguro pure breed yong Montella kaya hindi rin lumaki itong si batiti white at maaring maliit din ang mother hen. Anway, gumawa ng action itong isang tropa ko. Pumunta sa uncle niya sa Bacolod at pinili yong pina ka maliit na high breed sa kulongan na medyo pata-as ang pungos at may lambi pa. Hihiramin lang niya kono para pang breed. Kinayasan ng tahid si Bacolod, pina hinga ng two days sakay oli sa bangka maraming sama this time maraming volunter sa pag sagwan. Hamon si White Olikba
pustahan two hundred pesos (malaki na noon yan), bali manok. Pero dihado pa rin kami. kaya todo na lahat ang laman ng bulsa namin dito kay Bacolod, sahod at na low tress. Bitawan na, punas tari baka may lason, lipad si White Olikba, atras si Bacolod, lipad uli si White Olikba, hindi pa sumasayad sa lupa ito na si Bacolod parang makinilya ang pa-a.
Patay si White Olikba, walang sugat si Roundhead Bacolod. Sigawan ang mga spectator. Labas namin yong isang manok. Ayaw na nilang lumaban at ipinusta raw lahat ang pera nila kay White Olikba. So owi na kami, at haping-hapy. Sinampalokan si White Olikba pero nainip ang tropa, dahil tatlong oras ng naka salang e matigas pa rin ang laman at ubod ng item. Yon ginawang pulotan sa tuba ng mga matatanda. Walang gustong kumain ng black meat sa tropa ko. Pero masarap daw lalo na pag libre pati lapad at tuba. Baya-an mo jlbs72 tuturu-an kitang manari pag nag kita tayo sa Jauary 2002. Get in touch with me. Maaring magpapagawa ako ng tari pag owi ko para may magamit tayo. Dito lahat manggagaling ang metal. Magugustohan mo yong pattern na ipinakita ko kay Galapong.

------------------
Sonny

[Maning]

Sonny,
Pwede mo man ako mapadalhan sang pattern mo? Basi magustuhan ko man. Iba ang sa akon pattern pa ito ni dating D.O. Plaza. thanks.

-maning-

[jlbs72]

Thanks sundowner.

[victe]

DPKB, Lunch muna tayo![img]//sabong.com.ph/UbbNonCgi/smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Heto latak na lang na analysis. Pag puro bili at testing ng tari, the most you could get is you'll be at most acceptable mananari. Bahala na ang manok ang dumiskarte, anyway. I've seen chicken na nakataub ang tari na nananalo, yung iba bali ang tari, yung iba napurol ang tari yung iba imikot/gumalaw ang tari pero nananalo! What we are trying to achieve here ay sana, pag gumalaw at pumalo ang manok natin,may resulta! Yung manok mo, nakapalo ng dalawang beses, isang ganti ng kabila, tapos ang manok mo, di ba masakit tangapin yun?

Heto pa: Ang mananari na particular na sa gumagalaw na asinta at edge holding capability ng kanyang tari ay lamang palagi sa mananaring acceptable. kung acceptable lang ang skill mo sa pananari. Punta na lang tayo sa Casino gaya ko noon at tumaya ng BIG & small[img]//sabong.com.ph/UbbNonCgi/smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]


tsirs!

victe

[Kidd Sentencia]

Sonny, ambos mo rin ang Kidd sa tari ha...3 lang...hehehe.

DFV, anong ulam natin?

So, ang ibig mong sabihin, manari ka't hindi, ang importante ay manok, at importante rin ang tari...ano na ba yon...hehehe. Yes, you have a very valid point. Casino?...hindi kasing-thrill ng sabong, di ba.

Kidd

[the_cure]

Originally posted by victe:


Mine dont need any wrappings. its leather directly in contact with the shank and spur. Fixed and not adjustable. You can tie a wire without adding too much weight. Tying time is always less than a minute! safety is almost 100% since you can tie it with scabbard (SP)or bayna in it!

victe,
ang knife na ginagamit mo ay 'yong kagaya ng von socket knives cguro.(american socket)
itong akin ay adjustable socket knife naman kaya puede kong ma adjust basing on the cocks legs.




[This message has been edited by the_cure (edited 08-24-2001).]

[Camarines]

The_cure,
Don't be fooled with the adjustable socket knife. That's just the theory of guys selling their knives. I've tried them all. The traditional fork lk is still superior. You just have to know how to use it. The reason for this adjustable socket is that it's easy to tie. Check out NDT's comments on other threads. The traditional LK can be tied any way you want it and even on the right leg, which you can't do with an adjustable socket knife.

[This message has been edited by Camarines (edited 08-24-2001).]

[Sundowner]

You are welcome jlbs72. Kidd no problem kung tatlo lang. Kaya lang na idispatcha ko na lahat ang tari ko mula noong nag closed ang Arizona Pits at hindi na ako gumagawa. In demand din sana ang tari ko noon dahil marami ring omo-order from Texas and Oklahoma. Pati nga panghasa ko ay ipinagbili ko na rin. Nag iipon na lang ako ng mga materials (metal and silver rod)para ipagawa na lang sa Pinas. Dahil nga sa hindi init-pukpuk ang pag gawa ko at grind down lang, ipinag bawal ng Doctor ko at health hazard daw. Para sa akin, siempre importanti ang manok. Kahit number 1 na mananari at the best na tari ang ikabit kung mahina naman ang manok ay gutum din ang result. Often times pag naka una ng palo ang manok at naka tayo parin ang kalaban, tapos gumanti patay yong naka una at natalo, blame ka agad ang mananari. Maraming factors ang dapat i consider dito.. Una, mas buenas ang naka laban mo kaysa iyo. Di ba kung minsan naunahan at napilayan na pero panalo pa rin? Pangalawan, hindi accurate cutter ang manok at pagaspas lang ng pakpak (quality of piki ang pa-a). Pangatlo, naka una nga pero hindi grabi ang tama. Pang-apat, maaring bumaloktot o nabali ang dulo ng tari. Panglima, pag alam mong clear at kumo-kulog sa lakas ang palo ng manok at hindi lang isa, dalawa o talo, tapos naka tayo pa rin ang kalaban at puro pikiti lang ang sugat, may problima ang setting at angle sa pagkabit ng tari. Anyway, para sa akin, mas may trill ang sabong kaysa ibang sugal at mas relax ka, lalo na kung ang kasama mo ay nag i enjoy din. Ang ayaw ko yong may kasama ka na hindi nag co-concentrate sa sabong at iba ang ini-isip. Have a nice weekend to you kidd. chyer,

------------------
Sonny

[This message has been edited by Sundowner (edited 08-24-2001).]

[Sundowner]

Maning, ikaw pa !! siempre naman. Ihatag mo sa akon ang Fax number mo o kung gusto mo i mail ko na lang.. Madayon ka sa January? Naga ompisa na ako mag tipon-tipon para may pang bakal sang plane ticket. Pigaw guid ang bulang dire sa SD, kay maka haladlok.. ngani
naga plano na lang ako nga mag pa-alila sang manok sa aton para kung puedi na ibulang mag bakasyon na lang. Pero siguro pag retire ko sa Federal mapauli na kag mag pa balik-balik na lang para bisitahon ang mga apo. Noy, diin ang farm mo sa Pinas? Kag ano ang mga bloodlines mo? Maayo man tani kung maka lagaw kita sa mga manukan mo kag sa mga amigo mo nga naga manok. Gina imbita gani ako ni Tinchy (correct my spelling) sa Candelaria, pero perming short sa oras.




------------------
Sonny

[Kidd Sentencia]

Sonny, thanks...duon lang naman sa mga mapapagawa mo sa Pinas ang type ko...hehehe.

Ako rin, lahat ng factors sa sabong ay merong parte sa win/loss. The last to blame is malas or swerte.

tenk you,

Kidd

[victe]

DPKB, Meron akong Ram na sumabit ang k'wan sa barb wire di na pwedeng ..,.. Eto na lang ang i-ulam natin.Hmmn sarap!!!

Da_cure,
I'm da only user of this type of knife in da whole world and da maker too! Credit it to me[img]//sabong.com.ph/UbbNonCgi/smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] I'd engrave it to da stone that me and my chickens could enjoy it. see ya!


tsirs!

victe

[Rigolleto]

Hi guys,

It will be really good when we can all meet at the GK in Pampanga and talk about knives. Perhaps an exchange of ideas and designs would enable us to come up with an ideal knife and if it proves to be really good after extensive testing , we can adopt it as the standard knife to be used for all Cyberfriends entries. I myself will be using knives made for me by a master cutler here in NZ for my entry at the Cyberfriend derby at Roligon on January. The new design is an updated version of the semi-Malaysian knife I have used with great success before I left the country some 15 years ago. Had a chance to use them again last Dec 1998 during a 3 week holiday, scored 7 wins, 1 loss, & 1 draw at hackfights at Nepo Coliseum in Angeles City.

[victe]

Ganyan talaga ang maginoong magmamanok marunong kung paano manalo at matalo. Pagsinusubaybayan mo ang mga kapalpakan at ang mga tama mong ginawa, more or less mae enjoy mo ang sabong. Innovations sa mga diskarte makes you different from others. Be your own bookeeper not your handler/gaffer/feeder which you change every now and then or if you have one long enough serving you, baka off na ang gana o kumpyansa na sa mga ninuno ng winning breeds mo at nakakaligtaan tuloy ang mga dapat ingatan! When I make bitaw, with all my miticulousnes-ek-ek about knives and mananari, I just forget about knives and just concentrate how my chicken fought. Feeeling 100% confidence regarding knives.

Just a point[img]//sabong.com.ph/UbbNonCgi/smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]
tsirs!

victe

[the_cure]

Originally posted by Camarines:
The_cure,
Don't be fooled with the adjustable socket knife. That's just the theory of guys selling their knives. I've tried them all. The traditional fork lk is still superior. You just have to know how to use it. The reason for this adjustable socket is that it's easy to tie. Check out NDT's comments on other threads. The traditional LK can be tied any way you want it and even on the right leg, which you can't do with an adjustable socket knife.

[This message has been edited by Camarines (edited 08-24-2001).]

camarines,
if you say that you have tried them all
how come you said that the adjustable socket knife can't be tied in the right leg. i have a right-legged adjustable socket.
yours truly,
the_cure

[the_cure]

Originally posted by victe:


DPKB, Meron akong Ram na sumabit ang k'wan sa barb wire di na pwedeng ..,.. Eto na lang ang i-ulam natin.Hmmn sarap!!!

Da_cure,
I'm da only user of this type of knife in da whole world and da maker too! Credit it to me [img]//sabong.com.ph/UbbNonCgi/smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] I'd engrave it to da stone that me and my chickens could enjoy it. see ya!


tsirs!

victe

VICTE,
baka puede mo naman akong padalhan ng picture ng knife na naimbento mo? kung ok lang naman.

the_cure

[Camarines]

Originally posted by the_cure:
camarines,
if you say that you have tried them all
how come you said that the adjustable socket knife can't be tied in the right leg. i have a right-legged adjustable socket.
yours truly,
the_cure

If you have an adjustable socket knife for the right leg, you're right you can tie it on the right. But can you do it with an adjustable socket for the left leg. That's what I mean. Your traditional fork lk for the left leg can be tied to the right also. Either with a toe ring or not it should not matter. If you're satisfied with your adjustable socket knife that is fine but my own thinking is why change from traditonal lk to adjustable socket if the traditional lk works. You have to have left and right socket knifes while you can do it with only one traditional lk.

ang gusto ko sa traditional filipino knife is that it separates the real gaffer and the pretender. if you know how to use it, it's the best, if not, the socket knife is for you! at saka pagnanalo at filipino knife ang gamit mo, iba ang feeling dahil that's your set up at mas chanlenging. hindi kagaya ng socket isa lang ang set up, setup pa ng kungsinoman ang gumawa ng socket knife mo. thanx!