[jlbs72]

how can we make a good battlecross ?Do we need to mate a flyer to flyer or flyer to grounder? can you teach us how to make one?

Many thanks, GOd Bless !

It's up to you, what style you prefer ,but for me i'll try 3 way croos

[EAA Indians]

HHHhhmmmmm....Most breeders like two way crosses because the outcome is more predictable or consistent. And lke Marky, other breeders like 3-way crosses. Let's start with the 2-way cross with the ultimate goal of creating a new strain. Starting with a two pairs (two broodcocks and two hens). The purpose is to create two families that you can: 1-breed from both sides (Male/Female)and 2-cross the offsprings to create the new strain. Let say, you have a RH and YLH bloodlines. Setting 1, set Rh broodcock over YLH hen (as family 1) and then take the YLH broodcock over RH hen (as family 2). Setting 2, cross all the family 1 males over family2 females and family 2 males over family 1 females. The purpose of the inverting the breeding is to make the breeding tighter and produce consistent results from any sides. Through selective breeding in subsequent years, you will improve the performance and conformation of the offsprings. Now you can play with the bloodline ratio (Rh-YLH) to find the best nick. Maintaining several families, slows the deterioration of the strain and on a planned infusion/breeding out of another bloodline, you will refresh the breed. Therefore, maintaining the highesh performance from your strain. I hope I did not sound confusing. Good luck.

Great points EAA,
Here are some other theories to consider.
For LK, the long standing formula for selecting strains for an experimental cross has always been "Power cock over Speed hen".
Don't get me wrong, I have bred the other way, but I have had the best luck so far sticking to this rule. In the case of setting a strain, you can incorpperate this into that system. You can line breed to the hens side, as well as the cocks, then cross the offspring to start your strain.
I like three way crosses over a "pure" speed hen. This would result a 3/4 Speed 1/4 Power Battlecock. Hybrid Vigor is also maximized with such a cross. Of course these cocks would be used strictly as battlecocks, but they will be tough battlecocks.
One of my most trusted friends and Mentors told me to always breed from opposites. Ying and Yang so to say. Straight combed cock over pea combed hen, long keeled cock over "football" hen etc. I base my breeding program on this theory, and so far so good.
hope this helped,
edwin

[EAA Indians]

Edwin K...I remember my friend who personally got his foundation stock of Lacy RHs from Hugh Norman himself. Hugh's advice was the same as yours, if you want more action- breed the other bloodline (example: power/gameness) over the Lacy hen. From this cross, one can create several families and develop the best as a strain. The reason why I suggest to keep leading to developing a strain (whether one way or both sides) is to breed the strains (using Ying-Yang breeding-as you said) for maintaing the same performance and future sales and distribution. It will take several years to develop the strain that fits somebody but it is well worth it. This way your pures are safely protected/intack. From time to time, one might have to refresh the foundation stocks (pures). It is not too much of a risk to share the strain in partner farms as a precautionary practice. And if a disaster hits and one losses the pures, the strain can still continue. I know a small cocker who maintains one strain (hatch-mug) and has maintained a very impressive winning percentage including some very prestigious derbies. Our farm maintains several families of the original strain and also to fight. It is one way to keep life simple. Also, isn't it impressive to field the very similar looking cocks in every derby (predictable winning performance, same good conformation, same color whether it is a 3-cock or 10-cock derby). The bottom line is maintaining the positive cash flow for many years to come.


[This message has been edited by EAA Indians (edited 05-18-2001).]

Edwin and Ed ,good informative info---it make sense crossing family of fowls that has different traits for one reason---easy to trace which offspring is carrying the good genes.

[Galapong]

For me producing a good battlecross can be done by acquiring GREAT broodstocks...and take it from there..you can't go wrong.

Keep em game and fighting

Galapong

Edwin K. and EAA Indians, bravo!!! excellent post. What a coincidence, looking back to my notes, you guys just reconfirmed my hi-lights. Works for me too...
To those starters and not-so-sures, it doesn't hurt to follow this program...

------------------
Snake

in our experience 3/4-1/4 is not that bad
but you have to try it yourself i guess. keep them in good health

[ridgerunner 2000]

Originally posted by Galapong:
For me producing a good battlecross can be done by acquiring GREAT broodstocks...and take it from there..you can't go wrong.

Keep em game and fighting

Galapong

Galapong I agree 100% 2yrs is along time to find out you made a mistake.

CG

Originally posted by ridgerunner 2000:

Galapong I agree 100% 2yrs is along time to find out you made a mistake.

CG

proven broodstock acquired from good breeders is the best bet to produce good battlestocks. I agree also that 2 yrs is a very very long time you made a mistake, and also at the same ubos ang pera mo dahil talo lahat sila.....bro. galapong kitakits tayo sa linggo, baka magkatimbang tayo,....reizal

james pope`s mixture!

looking for carefully inbred stocks would be the first step for me.breeding on battlecross stocks mostly end up on offsprings erratic performances in pit,some are great and some are just plain junks.the next step for me is not just to look for carefully inbred fowl but also pit competitive in tough fight inbred stock.if this said inbred fowl produce winners then the next step to cross them also to another carefully tough competitive inbred stock.then i`ll pit test them (offsprings) to grade them.by the way there is no 100% in cockfighting.

[ridgerunner 2000]

In 1961 Curtis Blackwell won the Orlando tournament and the derby at ST Agustine fighting 1/2mclean hatch 1/2kelso. I went to Curtis and purchased a mclean cock and 4 kelso hens,later returning and purchasing a kelso cock and 4 1/2and1/2 hens.Nothing is 100% but you can sure cut the oods down.

Thanks CG

[jlbs72]

What is the importance of mating a cock to a pullet or a hen to a stag ? Can you share you're experience when you mate a pullet to a stag.

Again, Thanks for all the information above.

Have a nice day, God Bless !

jlbs,

It's a matter of fertility. Cocks like pullets, and stags like older women. LOL!
In my opinion, there isn't anything wrong with breeding young fowl to young fowl. It has been a long standing belief that young fowl tend to produce smaller or weaker offspring, but I have not seen this in my breeding program.
Hope this helped,
YFIS
Edwin

[jrtras]

Originally posted by jlbs72:
What is the importance of mating a cock to a pullet or a hen to a stag ? Can you share you're experience when you mate a pullet to a stag.

Again, Thanks for all the information above.

Have a nice day, God Bless !

Jlbs72,

If you are linebreeding, mating a cock to a pullet or a stag to a hen is one way of advancing your timetable, that is, by pairing a pullet to a cock (or stag to a hen), you are able to produce progeny for the succeeding generations at the earliest possible time. Older cocks or hens also tends to diminish their sexual productivity as they approach past their prime age, perhaps it is a belief that by pairing them to younger mates it would compensates on the older mate’s shortcomings in terms of sexual productivity. But eliminating the necessity factor, in my opinion, a cock to hen (or vice-versa) pairing is still the best mating to follow.

If you are to mate pullet to a stag (or vice versa), be sure they both have reached their age of sexual maturity coz it is said that eggs laid earlier in their sexual maturity tends to be low in fertility. Different breeds and strains have different age of sexual maturity but on the average, most reach their sexual maturity at 6 months of age. Hope this helps.

Cheers!

Jrtras

[jlbs72]

Thanks for the information, Edwin and jrtras. I hope our fellow breeder will also share their experiences and knowledge to this topic for us to broaden our knowledge in breeding.

Have a nice day, God Bless!

it`s all a matter of luck.linebreeding,inbreeding are theories still providing no guarantees of success.proven fowl don`t come in bunches,all a matter of luck.old and new keeps have their merits and are proven.it takes only common sense to sort out the things you need to prepare your fowl for a certain weapon.

How to produce a good battlecross

For me, Depends on what is available stock. Breeding, I thought requires trial and error method. "Gut Feeling" old cockers said :rbounce:

[Cedar Creek]

There is no magic formula to create the best fowl. Now, having said that, we try to breed towards a good combination of intelligence, cutting ability, station, speed, and gameness. I don't think it is of utmost importance whether you achieve this through improving on a single family or with multiple crosses.

My preference throughout the past 35 or so years has been with 2 & 3 way crosses. Even a few 4 way crosses stand out in my mind, but once you start into this realm of breeding you have a very complex genealogy.

In conclusion, try to breed healthy fowl with the characteristics you are looking for and keep it as simple as possible. My experiences reveal numerous trials and errors. Every cross just doesn't work well. It is very gratifying to occaisionally make that great cross.

you`ve got to have in possession first a PROVEN HEN in order to produce good battlecross fowl.and to have or produce a proven hen you must first have a broodcock that has excellent fighting performance and at the same time highly prepotent in order to pass his excellent qualities to her future DAUGHTERS.

[MOYZKI]

You cannot produce excellent battle crosses if you have poor quality breeding materials. So first thing you must do is to aquire the best breeding stocks with high winning records. Then follow the theories given by our friends above. After several years of breeding, you might produce your own style, combinations and winning formula for your battle crosses.


No proven theory is a guarantee that you will produce excellent battle crosses, you must start right by choosing your breeding stocks well....


MOYZKI

[jlbs72]

bump

[mr.twin]

this post help a lot for me cuase im a beginner in a battlecock especially in breeding...how old is the broodcock or broodhen to put in breeding.. and what are the vitamins that our broodcok can be more prepotent...


thnks

I agree... start with solid brood materials... there's less chance of producing mediocre offsprings... Then just follow the methods above i.e. crossing, linebreeding, and maybe even brother to sister. :teeth:

And to cut your loses in the future... make sure you CULL HARD ! ... this way all that is left in your farm are fowls that suits your taste and fowls that has a high chance of winning.

:rbounce:

[lybamba]

select the best broodstocks, breed the (F1) bro-sis pairing, line breed up to 4th gen. you have your own line to cross whatever you want.

or inbreed the f4 to your original stocks, is that makes sense? calling sir ray boles.

[grey man]

Originally Posted by reizal

proven broodstock acquired from good breeders is the best bet to produce good battlestocks. I agree also that 2 yrs is a very very long time you made a mistake, and also at the same ubos ang pera mo dahil talo lahat sila.....bro. galapong kitakits tayo sa linggo, baka magkatimbang tayo,....reizal

I hope now people understand why breeders charge what they charge. 2 years is a long time but thats what it takes to really get an idea how your breeding program is going. Keep in mind all the food,vitamins,time, etc all = money. Good breeder sell good chickens it just up to you the buyer to go hand pick them... Just my two cents.

[kahale808]

its more like a trial and error youll neva know until u try, wat might work for joe blow will not work for u eventhough u might have the same lines. just give it a shot.
alohaz
kahale

[BananaCamp]

After 11 years with my Hatch Kelsos at 5/8 3/8's either way are now showing good quick defensive style fighting and can still bomb when hurt...from the start they were real quick and aggresive fighters...have patience and stick to your breeding plan and most of all keep your flock healthy.....