[Mudflop]

A friend of mine has the Ray Boles Sweaters. He has seen my blend of Blackwater and Dink Sweaters that has been set as a strain in performance. He also saw my other family of Joe Sandford Sweater which has a different style. He has asked me to take his Ray Boles Sweater and cross into both my sweater families then give him the offspring of both sides so he can breed the offspring to each other and set them as a strain within itself. What do you folks think? Maybe Ray himself can let us know where the foundation of his stock originated from and if this would be a good mating.

[bigggamefarm]

Mudflop i think that would be a good mating

[ELITE808EDGE]

i think it would pretty much work out as you just have to try it out.. dont know till you try it

[gamecock96]

I have always heard"Breed like to like" from a lot of successful breeders. If you want consistency in fighting style, then look for chickens with the same fighting style , regarless of what breed they are.

Al

[RayBoles]

When you breed my pure fowl to other sweaters, you then have just a cross, it would be hard to maintain consistency, because of the mixture of out side blood. If you like what you get , you will have to use the same procedure i did, to make a pure family.

[kybreeder]

Ray, I have seen some of your sweaters come straight comb and green legged pullets. What did you breed into them?? but i have also seen other sweaters in the past come green leg pullets, and every now and then seen other sweaters that came st.comb. Have u ever had any come this way yourself??

[RayBoles]

I have never had a green leg bird, from my locked gene sweaters. I have had some white leg, some years back. In my locking of genes, I occasionaly got a straight comb. Through selective breeding it has been many years since I have had either. In the beginning, with the Kelso influience, I expected to get some white leg and some straignt comb. If I were to get straight comb or white leg now, it would not bother me, it is in their origional makeup. I have had an occasional customer, that said he got some white leg. If I had it to do over again I would have made a white leg family.

[knj_75]

Originally Posted by RayBoles

I have never had a green leg bird, from my locked gene sweaters. I have had some white leg, some years back. In my locking of genes, I occasionaly got a straight comb. Through selective breeding it has been many years since I have had either. In the beginning, with the Kelso influience, I expected to get some white leg and some straignt comb. If I were to get straight comb or white leg now, it would not bother me, it is in their origional makeup. I have had an occasional customer, that said he got some white leg. If I had it to do over again I would have made a white leg family.

Sir can you give us some ideas on how you lock the genes by your own way of breeding,maybe your way of breeding are different from some breeders here in PI.,many tnx sir..

[CALVIN2]

Originally Posted by RayBoles

I have never had a green leg bird, from my locked gene sweaters. I have had some white leg, some years back. In my locking of genes, I occasionaly got a straight comb. Through selective breeding it has been many years since I have had either. In the beginning, with the Kelso influience, I expected to get some white leg and some straignt comb. If I were to get straight comb or white leg now, it would not bother me, it is in their origional makeup. I have had an occasional customer, that said he got some white leg. If I had it to do over again I would have made a white leg family.

Good afternoon Mr. Boles
Who did you get your original Sweater's from ?

This is the first year hopefully out of 2 for me to attempt to lock mine as you suggest . for 20 plus years I have been using my 2 familys to keep mine fresh ,however both familys have thrown a green leg pullet's (and S C but rare) now and then never white leg.George Lay family and Otis Chappel I like them both the Otis family has white in the tails and lemon hackle typical looking Sweater's compaired to todays standard look .George Lay side are dark red ..
Sir if your getting yl and wl and sc and pc don't sound like you locked them to good ,Pure ???

[CALVIN2]

Originally Posted by knj_75

Sir can you give us some ideas on how you lock the genes by your own way of breeding,maybe your way of breeding are different from some breeders here in PI.,many tnx sir..

this may help

http://sabong.net.ph/forum/showthrea...ght=lock+genes

[Nortacs]

isn't this just the same as infusion? an example would be having an in bred family of sweaters manifesting breeding depression, one has to infuse new blood to the present stock to "freshen up" then slowly but surely breeding out the blood from the infusion

[ClipperMan-2]

Im kinda ASSUMING these sweaters, coming from the main sweater breeders in the US, are at least about 75% the same when it comes to blood composition, the 25% is for the infusions they made for their own preference...I blended Dinks and Bruces sweaters with very good result...

[RayBoles]

CALVIN2 If you don,t understand locking the genes I don,t have time to explain. First of all George got his sweaters from Otis. My sweaters came from Sue Wilson, who had the origional blood, without outside infustion. Nortacs, how can you get inbreeding depression from crosses. You have to have pure to get inbreeding depression. If they are not pure and detoriate, it is from outcrossing depression. But then again ,you have to know the diferance. Nortacs, would you explain the procedure used to breed out ,outside infusion. Take a pure German Shepard and breed it to a Poodle and then breed it back to pure German Shepard. When you say it is pure, ask the AKC to register it. You guys have alot to learn about proper breeding. CALVIN2 , my English Bulldogs come, white, brown and white, and brindle, can I still call them pure. According to your way of thinking, their genes must not be locked and there fore are not pure. KNJ-5. I don,t breed like any game fowl breeder I have ever known, or have read about. I breed like all the other breeders in the world breed, who do not breed like the game fowl breeders. By now, after reading all the things I have posted on this site, I though you would understand by now, that the way you breed and the fowl you use, is futile. But then again, if you never desire to produce consistency, it does not realy matter.

[Budoy2]

Originally Posted by RayBoles

When you breed my pure fowl to other sweaters, you then have just a cross, it would be hard to maintain consistency, because of the mixture of out side blood. If you like what you get , you will have to use the same procedure i did, to make a pure family.

Ray,can you please email me or post it here on how you make a pure family (your way). Thanks Ray. Here's my email address: ecoquendo@scif.com

This coming Bakbakan Stag Derby and Rambulan 2 stag derby i will try my sweater to sweater infusion Bruce Barnett Sweater cross to Dink Fair $5000 sweater baka sakaling pumatok


Cheersss!!!

Red
LAGABLAB ENTRY

[harry]

Originally Posted by RayBoles

CALVIN2 If you don,t understand locking the genes I don,t have time to explain. First of all George got his sweaters from Otis. My sweaters came from Sue Wilson, who had the origional blood, without outside infustion. Nortacs, how can you get inbreeding depression from crosses. You have to have pure to get inbreeding depression. If they are not pure and detoriate, it is from outcrossing depression. But then again ,you have to know the diferance. Nortacs, would you explain the procedure used to breed out ,outside infusion. Take a pure German Shepard and breed it to a Poodle and then breed it back to pure German Shepard. When you say it is pure, ask the AKC to register it. You guys have alot to learn about proper breeding. CALVIN2 , my English Bulldogs come, white, brown and white, and brindle, can I still call them pure. According to your way of thinking, their genes must not be locked and there fore are not pure. KNJ-5. I don,t breed like any game fowl breeder I have ever known, or have read about. I breed like all the other breeders in the world breed, who do not breed like the game fowl breeders. By now, after reading all the things I have posted on this site, I though you would understand by now, that the way you breed and the fowl you use, is futile. But then again, if you never desire to produce consistency, it does not realy matter.

sir your breeding style is for pure fowls i understand you that is your goal but our goal here in the philippines is not about locking genes or something like that its about the fighting style we want and the winability here in the slasher knife...

if i would buy a trio from your pure sweater fowl when it arrives here in p.i i would have crossed it anyway to produce battlefowl....

gamefowl is for fighting what else could be better here to use them anyway and a dog is a pet so thats a lot of difference

[CALVIN2]

Originally Posted by RayBoles

CALVIN2 If you don,t understand locking the genes I don,t have time to explain. First of all George got his sweaters from Otis. My sweaters came from Sue Wilson, who had the origional blood, without outside infustion. Nortacs, how can you get inbreeding depression from crosses. You have to have pure to get inbreeding depression. If they are not pure and detoriate, it is from outcrossing depression. But then again ,you have to know the diferance. Nortacs, would you explain the procedure used to breed out ,outside infusion. / According to your way of thinking, their genes must not be locked and there fore are not pure. KNJ-5. I don,t breed like any game fowl breeder I have ever known, or have read about. I breed like all the other breeders in the world breed, who do not breed like the game fowl breeders. By now, after reading all the things I have posted on this site, I though you would understand by now, that the way you breed and the fowl you use, is futile. But then again, if you never desire to produce consistency, it does not realy matter.

Mr. Boles
As I stated above if you would read it . This is the first year of of hopefully 2 following your advice of brother and sister mating then next year will do the same . I was just telling folks what I had done in the past and the fowl used .. The sweaters that came from Jerry Rayfield I have came direct from George ,the sweaters I have from Dean Johnson came from Otis .. Over the years people breed toward different traits, does not matter that they came from the same source 40 years ago they have evolved into to 2 different familys is all I was saying .. Both are very good just different in appearance and style now.Your a smart man on this subject that's why I posted the link of a previous thread so you would not need to repeat yourself just out of courtesy. And I will still try what you suggested in other threads and think I understand just fine sir ..BUT perhaps pure is a stretch huh . Also your just a little quick with your tone toward others ,I since your frustration and defensive tone towards those that would dare question your superior intellect .Perhaps a little softer delivery of your redundancy would be better received and respected .I still respect your knowledge on the subject ,I have lost some respect for you as a person .And all this time I thought Sue Wilson's were ylh , also had Sweaters learn something every time I get on Sabong,that's why I like it..

[CALVIN2]

The “Sweaters"

article courtesy of sabong.com.PH

One of the breeds of gamefowl most in demand today are the “Sweaters”. There are several versions of how they originated. The following acccount of their origin is “straight from the horse’s mouth”. It comes from Johnny Jumper and another respected cocker who knew the parent fowl; when, where and by whom they were bred. The following is their version how the Sweaters originated.
Sweater McGinnis gave Walter Kelso a yellow legged Hatch cock whose bloodlines are thought to trace back to Harold Brown’s McLean Hatch. Mr. Kelso bred this cock to his Kelso hens and the offspring from the mating proved to be outstanding pit cocks.
Cecil Davis, who was a friend of Mr. Kelso, walked cocks for him and had access to Mr. Kelso’s best fowl. Cecil got one of the cocks which Mr. Kelso raised from the Sweater McGinnis Hatch cock and his own hens.
Cecil got this cock from Doc Robinson, who also walked cocks for Mr. Kelso. The cock was yellow legged and pea combed. Cecil bred him to five of his out-and-out Kelso hens. The offspring from this mating were the foundation of the Sweaters. They were called Sweaters because the Hatch cock from Sweater McGinnis was their grandfather. As the above indicates, in breeding, they would be ¾ Kelso-¼ yellow legged Hatch.
The original Sweaters were bred by Ira Parks, who was Johnny Jumper’s brother-in-law, a very fine man and an excellent breeder of gamefowl. Ira, Johnny and Cecil were at the hub of a group of cockers in northern Mississippi and Tennessee who were friends and cocking partners. Several of this group got Sweaters from the original mating. Some of these friends have bred the Sweaters without addition of outside blood and have them in their purity today. Other breeders have added infusions of other blood to their Sweaters.
The line of Sweaters which is bringing the breed such popularity today came from Roy Brady, who got some of the first mating of Sweaters, to Sonny Ware, to Odis Chappell, to Carol Nesmith and the Browns of Mississippi. Odis Chappell let a number of friends in addition to Carol, have his Sweaters, so the blood has been distributed rather widely in central Alabama in recent years. It has been excelent blood for all who got it.

[CALVIN2]

CONTINUED:
This line of Sweaters produces occasional green legged offspring, usually pullets. When asked about his, Roy Brady said that at one time some Hatch was bred into this line. This line is said also to carry small amount of Radio blood.
The Sweaters described in this article are typically orange-red to light red in color, with yellow legs and pea combs. Of interest, however, Dolan Owens of Booneville, Mississippi, acquired some of the early Sweaters and has bred them to come uniformly dark, wine red in color, straight comb and white legged. In looks, these two lines of Sweaters show almost no resemblance. This is an example of how a family of fowl can be bred toward different standards by different breeders and In a few generations the two lines will be like two different breeds.
Sonny Ware bred some Radio into the Sweaters making them pumpkin in color. Most people like this color better and breed to that end.

[Nortacs]

sir rayboles, what i said was inbred fowls would eventually lead to breeding depression... you have to infuse another family of the same breed to freshen up the "depressed" family... of course by using another family other traits would come out that are not the same as your family, this is the time that you breed out the traits that you dont like coming from the other family of the same breed... that is the time you attain the consistency you want.. here is an example:
sweater family A showed depression, ray boles purchased a sweater from family B to "freshen up" his family A, the result would be sweater AB, this new family manifests 50% of the family A, 50% of family B - rayboles will now have to breed out the traits of family B that he did not like, probably until the 5th generation and come up with a freshened up family A... that is how i understand it sir... we filipinos are still learning the science and art of breeding the gamefowl, we're basically 100+ years behind our american counterparts in this area, while the american breeder was perfecting the gamefowl, the filipino breeder was fighting for his life against the spaniards... we have a lot to learn..
and another thing sir, if i may ask your opinion, i plan to have a family of sweater, i got 2 sweater hens from friends, what would be a good broodcock for them, a kelso or a hatch?
thanks and good luck! yfis

[RayBoles]

The day I have to cross my sweaters, to make them good enough to show, is the day I will destroy them. I have many pens of the exact same blood and one pen is in its 18 generation of sibling mating. Would someone tell me when I can expect the depression to show up? I know when it is coming, NEVER, because I am a Eugenicist. Nortacs, what you kon,t understand is, if I breed my sweaters to anyother sweaters in the world, all I have then is a cross. If you think I am wrong, post any fowl you wish, that you think is pure, and post their orgin and how they were made pure. CALVIN2 I am not looking for a buddy, I am trying to teach you guys proper breeding methods. Harry when are you going to quit listening to all that old bull s--- you have been tought for years. First of all it is not my method, it is the method used by all the breeders in the world , except the game fowl breeders. I guess we will have to cross all those thorough bred horses so they can run. How in the world can you cross a family, that is not good enough to fight, to another family that is not good enough to fight and get offspring that can fight. The reason the offsprings look better, is becasue their parents were so bad. Come on guys, think for your self, do some research and if you realy want to learn how to breed, CONTACT ANYONE WHO BREEDS ANYTHING OTHER THAN GAME FOWL . I will challenge anyone reading this post, we will take the same fowl, and breed them without outside infusion, and I will show you outcrossing depression, before you can show me inbreeding depression.

[Hatch Black]

no offense mr. boles, but have your fowl won any big derbies in the u.s. when it was legal? does anyone show your fowl in the p.i.? like in the candelaria or wsc?

[RayBoles]

The last person to give me his record in the PI was Mario Acup, his record was 63-2. I scored 6-1 in 2006 candelaria. If you guys can remember, before I went, I challenged all Sweater breeders, to bring their fowl and lets see who got the best score. In Dec.-Jan , in Mexico we won 9 of 11 derdies. But that diesn,t prove anything, except we used pure sweaters. Now post your record of the last pure trio you bought that were fought pure. I could care less about fighting a bird, I AM A BREEDER. If all I wanted to do was fight, I would never breed, I would just go out and buy good fowl and save a lot of time and money. If all these other breeders, care so much about game fowl, why have they not made some pure families and tried to improve the birds. Until someone proves me wrong, I will always say, you are just breeding, what the dog breeders call MUTTS. I dos not have to be this way, its time some of you guys to STEPP UP and learned how to breed properly and do something for the fowl. It,s not just that way in the PI, it is all over the world. Call some Master dog breeders, horse breeders, cow breeders, genecists , do some research and learn how to breed. If you won the WS, it doe,t make you a breeder, all you had to do is win 7 fights. Buy some fowl from the guy who won the last WS and show them the next year, I lay odds , you won,t get through the prelim. THINK, THINK, THINK.

[Hatch Black]

are you saying that others that breed sweaters like barnett, nesmith, etc.. are not breeding the "RIGHT" way. also, in the u.s. when it was legal, have your fowl won any major derbies? if they are that good pure as you state, i am sure that in the hands of your friends or customers they must have had some major accomplishments. if your breeding techniques are superior to others i would expect your fowl to be superior to others. the thing is though, i dont see too much guys blowing up this site asking about your fowl. dont matter if your a small time breeder, good news travels fast, and if you got the fowl cockers will be asking about them.

[Nortacs]

Originally Posted by RayBoles

The day I have to cross my sweaters, to make them good enough to show, is the day I will destroy them. I have many pens of the exact same blood and one pen is in its 18 generation of sibling mating. Would someone tell me when I can expect the depression to show up? I know when it is coming, NEVER, because I am a Eugenicist. Nortacs, what you kon,t understand is, if I breed my sweaters to anyother sweaters in the world, all I have then is a cross. If you think I am wrong, post any fowl you wish, that you think is pure, and post their orgin and how they were made pure. CALVIN2 I am not looking for a buddy, I am trying to teach you guys proper breeding methods. Harry when are you going to quit listening to all that old bull s--- you have been tought for years. First of all it is not my method, it is the method used by all the breeders in the world , except the game fowl breeders. I guess we will have to cross all those thorough bred horses so they can run. How in the world can you cross a family, that is not good enough to fight, to another family that is not good enough to fight and get offspring that can fight. The reason the offsprings look better, is becasue their parents were so bad. Come on guys, think for your self, do some research and if you realy want to learn how to breed, CONTACT ANYONE WHO BREEDS ANYTHING OTHER THAN GAME FOWL . I will challenge anyone reading this post, we will take the same fowl, and breed them without outside infusion, and I will show you outcrossing depression, before you can show me inbreeding depression.

i do understand what you mean, you have your own pure sweaters and they have been showing you more wins than loses, breeding them the way they are... i am not going to argue with you on that sir... but i do stand by the fact that deeply in breeding fowls leads to inbreeding depression, i guess this is true for all animals humans included...

[Nortacs]

Originally Posted by blackwaterfarms
Sir, Seed fowl are fowl that you keep to make your best pure strain fowl out of. For example, If you plant corn one year,then you take the very best seed from that crop, this is the seed corn for the next year's planting. The same holds true for your fowl.The very best of the offspring is your seed fowl. And the difference between Pure and seed fowl. I don't believe there is a strain of fowl with one blood.Because all of our strains are made up of more than one bloodline.We call our strains pure because they look alike, show alike in ability, and have the same conformations. Carol

this would explain everything..

[GG Crasher]

hmmmmmmm....here we go again about breeding....i'm still lookin my excellent wael combination as a complete fighting machine then might try what really Mr. Boles talking about, but still a way way long long road to tell before it happens maybe...

[RayBoles]

Nortac, research inbreeding, read it carefully, and post what the end results were, that the scientis created. I say Bruce and Carol don,t have a clue as how to properly breed. Any time they want to challenge me on the subject, in front of genecists and other animal breeders, I will galdly accept. The difference between you and me is, I have known them both over 40 years. Carol is right about seed fowl, it is called SELECTIVE BREEDING. But if your fowl are not pure, it will not work. Call either one of them, ask them, how any pure families they have, how long have they had them and the method they used to create them and how did they maintain them, without outside infusion. And if Caron knew breeding he would know, everything made pure by man has more than one blood, because it has more than one blood doesn,t mean it can,t be pure. Hatch Black, I sell every bird I raise, last season I pened 10 birds, all the others were sold before they were old enough to pen. I don,t have to cross my fowl, they are consistent year after year, they win more than they loose and yes they are superior to most, can they whip everyone, all the time ,NO. Just exactly are you looking for? All I want is good competive fowl that are the same year after year and can be improved with selective breeding, because they don,t have a bunch of mixed up genes. I have been posting the same thing on this site for about 5-6 years and it appears you guys don,t know anymore now than when I started. The two men you mentioned have between 50-100 brood pens each, do you honestly expect me to believe they are all the same and equal in performance production. If you do, I have a bridge I would like to sell you. RedMiner, I saw the 5000$ cock, before he was given the name. Take that bird and explain how to make a consistant reproducing family and take into consideration, no one knows his make up, and had any of his origional family blood to breed to.

Originally Posted by RayBoles

Nortac, research inbreeding, read it carefully, and post what the end results were, that the scientis created. I say Bruce and Carol don,t have a clue as how to properly breed. Any time they want to challenge me on the subject, in front of genecists and other animal breeders, I will galdly accept. The difference between you and me is, I have known them both over 40 years. Carol is right about seed fowl, it is called SELECTIVE BREEDING. But if your fowl are not pure, it will not work. Call either one of them, ask them, how any pure families they have, how long have they had them and the method they used to create them and how did they maintain them, without outside infusion. And if Caron knew breeding he would know, everything made pure by man has more than one blood, because it has more than one blood doesn,t mean it can,t be pure. Hatch Black, I sell every bird I raise, last season I pened 10 birds, all the others were sold before they were old enough to pen. I don,t have to cross my fowl, they are consistent year after year, they win more than they loose and yes they are superior to most, can they whip everyone, all the time ,NO. Just exactly are you looking for? All I want is good competive fowl that are the same year after year and can be improved with selective breeding, because they don,t have a bunch of mixed up genes. I have been posting the same thing on this site for about 5-6 years and it appears you guys don,t know anymore now than when I started. The two men you mentioned have between 50-100 brood pens each, do you honestly expect me to believe they are all the same and equal in performance production. If you do, I have a bridge I would like to sell you.

in this gentlemen bloodsport
the only meeting place
is the PIT
not in any classrooms of rocket scientist

[gamecock96]

Originally Posted by RayBoles

Nortac, research inbreeding, read it carefully, and post what the end results were, that the scientis created. I say Bruce and Carol don,t have a clue as how to properly breed. Any time they want to challenge me on the subject, in front of genecists and other animal breeders, I will galdly accept. The difference between you and me is, I have known them both over 40 years. Carol is right about seed fowl, it is called SELECTIVE BREEDING. But if your fowl are not pure, it will not work. .

Since you always compare chickens to other animals, upto now, chickens do not come with a pedigree paper when you breed them. I think it is because it is bred for performance more than its physical attributes, although that is important as well. Having said that, being successful in this sport is not about purity in blood alone. You say you have been saying this in this site for 5 to 6 yrs? I think the reason that people do not follow you is because they do not see you DOMINATING like the others who do not follow your breeding program. Maybe, what you should do, is help those dominating this sport make the fowls that they have pure and see if you can maintain their dominance in this sport.


Al