Hello,

I was hoping many of you here can help me understand the betting system in the country you fight in. I only know how to bet Filipino style, and it's like this:

Participant
Derby: I put up the entry fee for the event. Then there is a minimum bet required of me for each bird I fight. Amounts are imposed by the pit.

Hack Fight: I place the minimum bet, imposed by the pit, on my rooster.

Spectator
Derby and Hack Fight: Place bets with anybody. On "Wala" or on "Meron", and odds are given by the person you are betting against, or by you.

How is it different in your country?
What are "Options"?

Thanks in advance.

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during that momentous (?) and historic(?) christmas party for the cyberfriends at golden dragon's farm, i really enjoyed meeting in person the regulars of sabong.com.of course the delicious pinangat of princess and the lasagna of raravez (thank you sa bring home baon guys) as well as the bangus and .... ok, ok let me get to the point. i learned in that party from gamecock97 (tama ba?) that in the states, there is no minimum bet. if you don't want to bet, then you don't have to bet. this type of fighting should be adopted here in the philippines to help our argument that cocking is indeed a sport and a form of recreation. others may not agree but i believe that the only one which benefits from the minimum bet is the cockpit since whichever side wins, they get the plazada of 10%. if indeed our sport is a sport, then the gambling side must not be imposed on us. if you want to gamble, then bet on your rooster. kung hindi maparehasan ng casador, then one should just bet it outside at the gallery. i firmly believe that the cockpit can still get its profit from the gate receipts and from the 10% plazada of the winning rooster with a bet on it. otherwise, kung ang nanalo ay walang pusta, then the pit gets nothing. and this should be perfectly alright for everyone - because sabong is, as we have all been maintaining up to now, a first and foremost, a sport. unless all that has just become rhetoric.
if one maintains that there should be a minimum bet to cover the feeds, the cost of the rooster if bought, etc., then bet an amount. but the opponent should not be forced to make a bet. i have yet to see a fight in this nature. maybe it's about time.
i'm not moralizing or anything. i'm probably less of a saint compared to you guys out there (my halo disappears pagdating ng gabi)but the point is - we don't have to gamble and place a bet just to fight our roosters.

[Kidd Sentencia]

Betting in the US legal states derbies. I think, since I've only been in Copper State, the system is the same or just slightly differ. These are my observations. Since their style is elimination, for a 6-cock derby, they'll say option 1-2-3 $500; then 4-5-6 $500. If someone is eliminated on the 1-2-3, I'm not sure if they can still fight on the 4-5-6. There are no center bet, so nobody gets "forced" to bet or begged.

On the crowd bets, they always based it on $100. Dehado or Llamado can announce whatever odds they want to get or want to give. "I lay $80" means llamado is offering 8 wins 10; "I want $80" means dehado is asking to give him 8 wins 10. For evens, no llamado or dehado, bettors just yell the amount and "this side" pointing at their choice cock's side.

Again, these are just my observations, they may not be 100% accurate.

Kidd

[gamecock96]

Emoy, yes it is gamecock96. Don't forget to say hi to mikee, hehehehehe.
Kidd, you explained it very well. I just want to add that if anybody wants to bet more than 100 then you have to say times 1, 2, 3, or 4 etc. etc.
Emoy, explained the gambling part very well too. It looks more of a sport if there is no required minimum bet or center bet for the participants of the derby. Unlike here in the Philippines, medyo palakihan ng pustahan dito eh.

[Kidd Sentencia]

Thanks Gamecock96 and forever...hehehe.

Kaya siguro ang mga pit managers eh ayaw gumamit ng software sa matching nila kasi dahil sa pusta...mina-match din nila yung mga mapupusta bukod sa siempre meron silang mga taong hindi nila mapahindian. Pero hindi pa rin ako sold sa ganoon...ako eh ang kailangang palitan, ngayon na umpisahan. hehehe.

Kidd

Originally posted by emoy:
if you don't want to bet, then you don't have to bet. this type of fighting should be adopted here in the philippines to help our argument that cocking is indeed a sport and a form of recreation. others may not agree but i believe that the only one which benefits from the minimum bet is the cockpit since whichever side wins, they get the plazada of 10%. if indeed our sport is a sport, then the gambling side must not be imposed on us. if you want to gamble, then bet on your rooster. kung hindi maparehasan ng casador, then one should just bet it outside at the gallery.
if one maintains that there should be a minimum bet to cover the feeds, the cost of the rooster if bought, etc., then bet an amount. but the opponent should not be forced to make a bet. i have yet to see a fight in this nature. maybe it's about time.
we don't have to gamble and place a bet just to fight our roosters.

Good idea emoy! Gone are the days when the parada at hackfights were P550-1100.

Kung matutuloy ang betting system na nabangit ni Emoy dito mo makikita ang tunay na integridad ng masang sabungero but this is subject to the recommendation and approval ng mga pit operators. Sa totoo lang,dumadami ang mga cockpit sa boong bansa hindi dahil lang sa sport na Sabong kundi isa na rin itong investment na pagkakitaan o negosyo.But let's be fair,there are of course a reason behind this things. I just wait for the enlightenment[img]//sabong.com.ph/UbbNonCgi/smilies/lol.gif[/img]

Cheers and Mabuhay!

Ilahas

Kidd,

Derbys here in USA are pretty much the same thing in PI. The options are for 3 straight wins. For example on 5-cock, 1-2-3, 2-3-4, 3-4-5. Winners on options will split the "Option Money" only. "Option Money" has nothing to do with the "Pot Money". But then again this is only optional, hence the word "option".LOL.
When you want to bet on the favorite and have to give odds, you say "I lay" 80 or whatever. Meaning 80 wins 100, 70 wins 100. You get the picture. When you want to bet on the underdog, you just say, "1 time"," 2 times" or whatever. Now if your asking for more odds, then you say "I Call" 60 or whatever. Hope this helps.

Hits_A_Lot

[Camarines]

Looks to me this thread is going to be a long one. Betting system in other countries... The one and only time I went to a tupada in Waianaie, Hawaii back in 1981, the system they use in betting is on who releases the rooster. If the llamado who is releasing the rooster is an old man, they will call old man, old man without any logro. If it was a person of Japanese descent, they call Japani, Japani or if it was a Portuguese descent it would be Portugi, Portugi. Hawaii slang language is called Pidgin. So if it was a white person they probably call Haoli, Haoli. They call Filipino there Ilocano and not Filipino because there they're the majority.

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To err is human , To IMPEACH is divine.

[edwin]

Sometimes in virginia habang tinatarihan
palang ang manok nag-uusap na kayo sa pusta.
Kaya pagpasok niyo sa gradas bitawan na,saka pag american sponsored ang derby walang
palasada.They only make their cut from the pot money and the entrance fee.
And this is the kicker minsan you bought the fowl for $300,tapos pag puti ang nakalaban mo
parada niya $50,patay kana.
That's why minsan ang mga pinoy gusto nilang match pinoy din kasi mapusta.
Some american guys they just call the color
of the fowl,$10 for the grey!!!!!pero pag pinoy parang sa pinas din,sa wala ,sa meron.
tambak1

Hello, dito naman sa North West(America) ganito ang tawagan. Una,i-anounce ng kasador
kung sino ang llamado and dehado after getting their center bet(plasada)then, try to call for even betting. Usually kung about
100-400$ ang difference, kuha sa even betting yan. Pero kung malaki ang diperensya
siguradong bagsak sa logro. The tawagan would be like this: "Hundred to Eighty",
"Hundred to Seventy", and kung minsan "Hundred to Sixty" if you are calling for the llamado. Meaning, you want 80$,70$, or 60$ for your 100$. Just add "One time" if you want to bet 100$, "Two times" for 200$, and etc........Kung tahimik na ang mga tao
at gusto mong humabol ng pusta sa dehado with an odd, then you quickly say "I'll take
Hundred to Eighty... one time" if you want to win 100$ with your 80$, "two times" if you
want to win 200$ with your 160$, and etc....
Sa even betting naman, they"ll say "100 that
side", or "100 this side" sabay turo din with your hands. Karamihan pinoy din ang mga naglalaro dito, with a few Guameneans, and once in a while a few puti in the long knife. Short knife naman, karamihan Mexicans with a few pinoys, and whites. Sa kareo naman, the pitters will handle their own nokma at the command of the referee. Hope you like this info.
Have a nice day guys!
NDT

[EAA Indians]

[quote]Originally posted by Kidd Sentencia:
[b]Betting in the US legal states derbies.

Kidd is right that there is no minimum bet and several options are available on 3 wins. In the event one loses the first fight, the mgnt. will fight the first 2, then the entries with one loss can only be called if their entry is matched against an entry with a "bearing in the derby". Because our cocks are air shipped from Florida to LA and transported to Copperstate, I always inform mgmt. that if possible I want all the chickens fought because I want to recoup my higher incoming and outgoing shipping cost. Somtimes they can accomodate my request if some cockers who have no bearing on the derby would quit early to save their chickens, then, I would be allowed to replace their cocks with the same weight.

When Paul Fassot and the Filipino group were running the Quartzsite pit (next to Copperstate), I asked for a minimum bet but I was told that the American cockers will not support the minimum bet. So, we end up betting against the entry (even bet) while in the tunnel waiting on line to fight.

Cockfighting in the Philippines is the best in the world. If you are a big bettor, the kasador will try very hard to match your parada. One can make money for the day even when not winning the derby. It is possible to take home some money, if the winning percentage is over 50% of the fights. More so, if the fights are mostly dehado. I enjoy visiting the Philippines because of the good sabongs everyday of the week.

EAA Indians

Great!

Anymore countries? Latin America? Malaysia? Australia?

I like the "no minimum bet" system in the legal American pits... It's great. You get to test your breeding and not spend so much money. And if you're good, you walk home with the pot, and options (which I now understand).

Thanks a lot [img]//sabong.com.ph/UbbNonCgi/smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

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[RARAVEZ]

In this island, they fight big rooster, there is a side if A and B, A is bigger to B, A is the one will give the partida or B will ask the partida. ex. A will give like if you don't knock me out in 45 minutes you will win. no knife but the spur will be covered with a cloth. within the 45 min whatever comes out will be the winner. for betting mostly the spectator know nothing about it. how about the express derby, we have an express derby some time in early 80's. maximum bet, but if you want a bigger bet the kasador will ask the trabesiador, and if nobody response, the kasador will count to 1,2,3. if still silent, then larga na po yan, at magpustahan na kayo.sana lahat ng may paderby laging may tropeong pinaglalabanan para may masabing pang sports talaga.

[Kidd Sentencia]

Originally posted by Hits_A_Lot:
Kidd,

Derbys here in USA are pretty much the same thing in PI. The options are for 3 straight wins. For example on 5-cock, 1-2-3, 2-3-4, 3-4-5. Winners on options will split the "Option Money" only. "Option Money" has nothing to do with the "Pot Money". But then again this is only optional, hence the word "option".LOL.
When you want to bet on the favorite and have to give odds, you say "I lay" 80 or whatever. Meaning 80 wins 100, 70 wins 100. You get the picture. When you want to bet on the underdog, you just say, "1 time"," 2 times" or whatever. Now if your asking for more odds, then you say "I Call" 60 or whatever. Hope this helps.

Hits_A_Lot

Hits_A_Lot, thanks...I got the picture. Mine was CopperState, was that there? Anyway, it's within the ballpark, hehehe. However, other than the cocks fighting, I don't see any similarities of the derbies in PI and USA. That statement of yours is wrong...sorry.

Kidd

This posting pit is composed mainly of COCKERS, not gamblers. This can be gleaned from the kind of responses I read. More on the chicken than the bet. One question though - a breeder-friend told me that the high bets actually helps the breeder survive- its hard enough making ends meet at the farm. If people cant be guaranteed a sizable center bet, would they buy our expensive fowl? Just asking guys!

Kidd,

Seems like I pushed a wrong button.LOL. Sorry,I didn't mean to offend you. Anyway, which part of derby is not the same? Please indulge me. Last time I was in PI was back in 1986. I didn't see any "Big Time Derbys", just a few small derbys in Santa Ana Race Club in Manila. However,I've seen many Big Time Derby tapes. Most of them looks similar routine. As long as you have a bearing, they will call you. Isn't that how it works?. BTW, I'm familiar with Copper State, Quartsite and Neighbors. Looking forward to your post. Thanks.

Hits_A_lot

[Kidd Sentencia]

Hits_A_Lot, Here are some:

There is no elimination in a one-day derby.
The ones with losing points, i.e. 3 losses, in a 5-cock derby, still must fight their fourth or fifth as long as their scheduled opponent is still on the running. The matches are scheduled entirely for the whole day or derby...no unnecessary changes as soon as it is published or started. Most of no-fights are voluntarily being agreed upon by the opposing party, not regulated...common sense applies, i.e. same 3 losses already. The championship prize (pot) is divided between champions, and runner ups...Gaffers and Handlers are given some too in some instances. You know the PI requires center bet, and no agreed-upon bets or settled as far as center bet (parada) is concerned, the fight won't push thru...so they have to settle the bet whatever it takes. There's a few more, i.e. referee, handling, time limit, weapons, etc. So the similarity only lies on the fact that you have to pay an entry fee and that you bring cocks to fight and fight 'em. Not close at all.

Kidd

[This message has been edited by Kidd Sentencia (edited 01-05-2001).]

Kidd,

Thanks for the prompt response. The funny thing is...you have just described a typical 5-cock LK Derby here in the States. With the exemptions of referee and runner ups getting money. Here, there is a referee but you have to handle your own bird. There is no room for second place here. If you stop and think about...the mechanics are all the same. i.e. matching weight, weapons, time limit. So far maybe 2 or 3 out of everything you've mentioned are not similar. So I'll say that's close enough. And furthermore, I quote " Derbys here are pretty much the same thing in PI", I didn't state "exactly the same". Like I said the mechanics are all the same, maybe it differs in philisophical opinion. Cheers.

Hits_A_Lot

[Kidd Sentencia]

Hits_A_Lot, let's leave it to that...I have no more comment.

Peace,
Kidd

Kidd,

I concur...Honestly, I didn't mean to offend you. I apologized. Thanks Bro.

Hits_A_Lot

Hello All,

Just wanted to add my two cents on the "Option Pot". Last year when I entered a SK derby, there is what you called the "option pot". Contrary to the above post where you need to score 3 straight wins, i.e. 1-2-3, 2-3-4, or 3-4-5, the "option money" for us will be rewarded to the entry who had the second best record in the derby. Let's say for example it is a 5-cock derby, somebody who scores 5-0, hence will be crowned the derby champion but whoever has the next best record, second place say with a 4-1 record, will get the "option pot". This is of course with the discretion of the pit owner...

With regards to the gambling portion of our sport, I do agree that sometimes "economics" plays a major role to the sudden increase of bets when we fight our fowl. In my opinion, this is where you separate the "breeder" and the "gambler". The breeder would not mind if the bet is just fifty bucks. He just want to prove his breeding and really just enjoy the "sport" as it is. His love for the game is not measured by how much money he wins, but his satisfaction comes from knowing that the fowls he breeds and cared for throughout their lives, actually wins for him. This is the fruit of his labor. The gambler, on the other hand, is the one that buys fowls for the sole purpose of fighting it. He would bet astronomical amounts of money for a chance to double his investment. A lesser form of gambler is the one that actually put a value on how much he had spent on his fowl to date, whether for feeds and/or the cost of the fowl itself. He will try and recoup this cost by betting more on his fowl hoping that it would pay dividends for him. Ito ang mga tao na kapag natalo ang kanilang manok ay madaling uminit ang ulo (lol). This type of phenomenon has what cause the general public, at least here in America, to perceive to the notion that all cockers are gamblers. Sad to say but in a way--this is true. Again, this is just my observation and I hope I didn't offend anybody...Let me know what your thoughts are. Thanks!

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Lasak1

[Kidd Sentencia]

Greetings Arnel, your post does not offend anyone, I believe. Let me just comment on the "$50 bet/breeder don't mind." Yes, a breeder may say that, but deep in him he would rather get the big bucks. In my opinion, the breeder who will say that, is a hyprocrite. Among sportsmen in the whole world, if they are top-notch, say Tiger Woods, you can not get him off his golf---he loves golf and would not exchange it for most of things, but will he say "pay me $1,000 only cause I enjoy the sports?...of course not...same philosophy applies to the breeders. IMHO.

Cheers!
Kidd

[Camarines]

In Guam if you're calling for bets like giving odds of 50-40, 25-20, or even bets, you will hand your money to the person who's betting against you. If you win you will get back your money plus your winning. In this kind of betting you're probably limited to 3 people because you might not remember who took your money.

Originally posted by Kidd Sentencia:
Greetings Arnel, your post does not offend anyone, I believe. Let me just comment on the "$50 bet/breeder don't mind." Yes, a breeder may say that, but deep in him he would rather get the big bucks. In my opinion, the breeder who will say that, is a hyprocrite. Among sportsmen in the whole world, if they are top-notch, say Tiger Woods, you can not get him off his golf---he loves golf and would not exchange it for most of things, but will he say "pay me $1,000 only cause I enjoy the sports?...of course not...same philosophy applies to the breeders. IMHO.

Cheers!
Kidd

Hello Kidd,

Yes, point well taken...Although I disagree that all of them are hypocrite, because I know for a fact, that some of them really just enjoy the sport. I know some people here who actually bets just $25 each, sometimes less, to fight their birds. It's more a picnic/family gathering type of set-up. They bring food (potluck) and their families and really make a day out of it. It's more for the "bragging rights" that they test their birds... This does not mean that the fowls being shown are less quality, on the contrary they are very good and you could tell they are from good lineage and are very well taken care of.

Me on the other hand, would like to bet more but my heart cannot afford it (as well as resources)lol!!!. Although there are times when I would like to bet more than I can really afford on my birds because I know they were "that good", it is something that I'm not yet comfortable of doing at this point. Maybe someday when my kids are all grown up...(lol). Control lang muna....Anyways, these are just my thoughts...



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Lasak1

[Kidd Sentencia]

Arnel, the hypocrites I'm talking about are people who can make bigger bucks but opt not to due to the love of the "sport." Alam ko hindi libre ang magsabong sa lugar na sinasabi mo. That's why some of the cockers there are doing it that way. "Picnic" with families--kids?...well, that's a risk, exposing their family to a possible hulihan? I know some of you go out of state to fight derbies too...but when you do that one should be gunning to make his investment multiplies. Betting does not have to be heavy in the derbies in the states nor anywhere, just gun for the pot--that's enough. Either way, you are investing heavy as the cocks plus travel and accomodations are not cheap too. Bottom line is most sabungeros dream of superior cocks...superior cocks means big bucks.

Kidd

Hello everybody!

I'm from Puerto Rico and this is my first post, so I will tell you more or less how we bet here.

First of, we do not have derbys, we just have one on one fights. About 30 to 35 the same night with a time limit of 15 minutes.

You get to choose where to fight. you can go to the Coliseum, wich is by no means the place of the better cockers,it is just the place of the rich guys. I proof of that is visitors win about 80% of the fights they bring to them because we are to proud to raise an ordinary cock, and when we take something to the Coliseum where the money run loose it better be really good. ^here they weight the cocks and they make the matches by weight, no age, experience is taken in consideration.

And there are the "galleras" or cockpits, where you get to see the creme of the crop, but also have to be very alert because they do tricks in some of them.

In this ones you get there early in the morning and the first thing you do is weight your "gallo" or gamecock. When you have you weight you start to make calls so everybody knows what you have. When somebody says they have a wight match, usually you ask to have side by side. You look if it is an older or already fighted cock, height and general looks.

Then if you still like the match you go and weight them again and if it is all right both "galleros" or cockers deciede what will be the "posta" or purse for the fight. Usually it is from $100 to $200, unless you go against a good one, the it starts to rise from $500 to several thousand dollars (US).

Then you leave the cocks in the matched fights area and get back about 4 PM to the fights. They use stripes in the tape that holds the postiza in two colors, red and blue stripes wich are used to identify the two cocks. When they get to the pit they are called by owner and color by the "juez the valla" that I guess will be the sentenciador. Everybody has their favorite and always the ones that offer are who start calling the color they like then the say what they offer and you deciede where to bet.

It can go like I give 100 to 70 red and at the same time you may see somebody giving 50 to 30 blue. Always you bet to win or tie when it gets long and is close to the 15 minutes time limit.

There is people who cover themselves by beting to both sides or even worst against their own cock, but I feel doing that is to quit to your feathered friend who is there to die for you, his mater.....I just can't do it.

Thats the way it goes here, by the way I will post a picture of the postizas we use here because I saw a post with a small thing that is not even close to what we use, ours are gaffs but made out of plastic.



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Carlos Alexis Lopez

[This message has been edited by Calex (edited 01-10-2001).]

[Camarines]

Originally posted by francis conde:
This posting pit is composed mainly of COCKERS, not gamblers. This can be gleaned from the kind of responses I read. More on the chicken than the bet. One question though - a breeder-friend told me that the high bets actually helps the breeder survive- its hard enough making ends meet at the farm. If people cant be guaranteed a sizable center bet, would they buy our expensive fowl? Just asking guys!

In the US they can fight their fowls in the derby without center bet. The pit operators don't get involve with the center bet. It's just you and your opponent and it's called gentleman's wager. If the pit operator is involve then that is gambling. What the derby entrants is cashing on is the pot money and to test their fowls' gameness. I hope we can adopt some betting system in other sports like badminton. The players bet canned goods on who will win. I guess just to make the sport more interesting. Or probably a bet of one 50lbs bag of feed against an opponent will do.


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Skyhawk

[bvhal331]

Originally posted by emoy;

"i learned in that party from gamecock97 (tama ba?) that in the states, there is no minimum bet. if you don't want to bet, then you don't have to bet. this type of fighting should be adopted here in the philippines to help our argument that cocking is indeed a sport and a form of recreation."

I personally agree with emoy that minimum bet must not be a requirement to fight your cock in the pit and must be adopted in the Philippines. However, I honestly believe that this would be next to impossible considering that most, if not all, Filipino cockers are heavy bettors (please correct me if I'm wrong) especially if the cock they bet on is their own breed. Would you agree? Well, this is just my observation and opinion.

Kayo naman, ano sa palagay nyo?

[Kidd Sentencia]

g digger