[victe]

How can we avoid the tare being knock off position? help!!!

one thing i always try to do is to challenge the rationale on why we do certain things, especially in sabong. in this case, the way we put on the sapin. i have been heeling the traditional way of tying on the knives since 1986 and just blindly accepted this method. one of the things that really continues to pester me is how the paunan came into being and why we have to have that singsingan, and why we had to basically align the knife parallel to the prop toe. first, i found out that during the early times, maybe spanish times pa, it was their habit to put latin orasyons, secret anting-antings, ngipin ng cobra, and other talismans while the bamboo paunan is being rolled with the sapin on the final part of the placing of the sapin. diyos ko, naka-abot na ang tao sa buwan, hindi na tayo umalis sa paunan, o sa bisaya likit, na ito.
next is the singsingan. there is no structural or functional purpose for this part of the tari. for those in the know, it even hinders the proper heeling of the rooster.
i showed on tukaan the many different kinds of leather boots as shown and demonstrated by mang carding manaloto and how each is more advantageous to use compared to the traditional sapin.
by the way, it's good to know your in Zambo. my two-man crew and i will visit manny dalipe and co. sometime this month to interview them for my program. maybe we can see each otehr theren and have some more chicken talk.
victe, see you at the derbies!

[Camarines]

Mang Emoy kayo nga'y dapat lamang tawagin Mang dahil sa uri ng pag galang at hindi sa inyo hong edad. Napanood ko ang isang programa sa tape ang "sultada" at nakita ko ang inyong personalidad. Nabasa ko na rin ang inyong artikulo sa Gamecock magazine. Sa aking opinyon ay tama ang mga analysis ninyo sa leather wrap. May kaibigan akong ganoon din ang turo sa akin. Gumagamit siya ng balat na sapin sa kanyang wika ay "to eliminate mistakes". Ang iba ay gumagamit muna ng friction tape bago ilagay ang leather wrap para hindi gumalaw ang leather. Ang kanya namang style ay gagamit siya ng kapirasong sapin na ang haba ay mga 10 inches lamang, isasapin niya ito sa paa ng manok bago niya ilalagay ang leather wrap pagkatapos ang sobrang sapin ay kanyang ipaiikot sa leather wrap para hindi gumalaw ang leather. Dahil sa walang mahanapang tie string gumagamit na lamang siya ng waxed dental floss. Kung ito ay kanyang original na style siya lamang ang alam kong gumagawa nito. Pero baka napulot niya din sa inyong programa.

i was in ucpb emerald branch and when i kidded the youngish looking branch manager as manay candy, she loudly called me from afar as mang emoy. practically the whole branch laughed out loud, including my friends. eh humihirit pa naman tayo doon sa isang teller... that was the first time tinawag akong "mang" emoy. doesn't feel right, if you know what i mean. anyway, back to the sapin, i saw richard harris, one of the best feeders in the states today, tie his own fork knife during the master breeders derby in roligon. and he tied it the same way ou have just described, camarines. but he didn't use the dental floss, which, in my opinion, after having used it once, although expensive, gives a much better grip than the usual balawi. mang carding manaloto told me that the late speaker mitra and justice quiring abad santos, together with the late kip moore were the first ones daw that experimented with this leather strap or boot. this was probably during the 70's pa. today, marami na ang mga improvements, kaya it's good to know we're moving forward in this aspect. hanggang dito na lamang.

[victe]

The padding/sapin revolutionized much greater than the tare. In my opinion, the fork knife tare "evolve" because of the sapin/padding inherent weaknesses. The socket knife exist because of the so called human errors of all sort. This socket knife and other "strain" of the socket knife created by some of our creative craftman were not prefered/accepted by the majority of the mananari because of their positioning/alignment preference could not be satisfied wrt specific shank characteristic. Many tried to solve this but just couldn't get it perfected.
Now since I put my heart in this challenge reading and reading, observing the real world, listening to tuka-an series, only then that I was able to perfect it. Yes, you heard it right... perfected!!. just last night I came out of the idea inspired by you guys!!! The prototype is already made. Oh boy!! it is just great. I'll tell you guys how I made it. but for now I'll go to sleep.

[Camarines]

Thanks Emoy for giving those information that I never know before. Am amaze at your know how. Going back to the sapin and leather boot, wrap or strap, whateveryoumaycallit, I know of a mananare who alternate using the sapin and boot. In hot summer weather he uses the sapin and in cold winter weather he uses the leather boot. I asked him about this, and his answer is the sapin is sticky with the bees wax in hot weather but during the cold weather it does not work well. So there is always a question on how and why things are done by some people. If you don't get out of the box you can never think of other ways things are done. I'm a mananare of my own birds too and I've done the traditional way, socket, and adjustable knife.

HELLO THERE VICTE,
IF YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT THE TRADITIONAL FILIPINO FORK KNIFE, I COULD THINK OF TWO REASONS AS TO WHY THIS PROBLEM ARISE. FIRST IS WHEN THE KNIFE IS NOT PROPERLY TIED. MEANING, THE GAFFER DID NOT PUT ENOUGH STRING TENSION TO COUNTER THE PULL OF THE ROOSTER WHEN THE KNIFE IS IMBEDED. THE TARI HAS TO BE TIED WITH GOOD COUNTERLOCKING KNOTS
IN ORDER TO AVOID THIS PROBLEM. THE SECOND IS WHEN GAFFERS TRY TO HEEL A SPURLESS ROOSTER WITH A NOT SO STICKY SAPIN. THIS WAY,
THE WHOLE BLOCK WOULD TWIST OR ROTATE IN OR OUT, SO THE ALIGNMENT IS OFF. LIKE YOU, I ALSO DEVELOPED MY OWN FORK KNIFE AND THIS IS ONE OF THE FEW PROBLEMS I HAVE WITH THE TRADITIONAL FORK KNIFE THAT I ELIMINATED.
HOPE THIS MAKE SENSE.
PEACE,
NEMY

Originally posted by Camarines:
Mang Emoy kayo nga'y dapat lamang tawagin Mang dahil sa uri ng pag galang at hindi sa inyo hong edad. Napanood ko ang isang programa sa tape ang "sultada" at nakita ko ang inyong personalidad. Nabasa ko na rin ang inyong artikulo sa Gamecock magazine. Sa aking opinyon ay tama ang mga analysis ninyo sa leather wrap. May kaibigan akong ganoon din ang turo sa akin. Gumagamit siya ng balat na sapin sa kanyang wika ay "to eliminate mistakes". Ang iba ay gumagamit muna ng friction tape bago ilagay ang leather wrap para hindi gumalaw ang leather. Ang kanya namang style ay gagamit siya ng kapirasong sapin na ang haba ay mga 10 inches lamang, isasapin niya ito sa paa ng manok bago niya ilalagay ang leather wrap pagkatapos ang sobrang sapin ay kanyang ipaiikot sa leather wrap para hindi gumalaw ang leather. Dahil sa walang mahanapang tie string gumagamit na lamang siya ng waxed dental floss. Kung ito ay kanyang original na style siya lamang ang alam kong gumagawa nito. Pero baka napulot niya din sa inyong programa.

HELLO CAMARINES,
PUWEDE HO BANG MAGTANONG? SI NEMY PO ITO. GUSTO KO LANG PONG MAITANONG KUNG ANONG KLASENG TARI ANG GINAGAMIT NG KAIBIGAN MONG
GUMAGAMIT NG BALAT AT 10 INCHES NA SAPIN.
ITO LANG PO. MARAMING SALAMAT, BUDDY.
NEMY

[Camarines]

ND, ang ginagamit ng kaibigan ko ay Filipino fork knife o lk. Ang konting sapin ay para lamang bigyan ang leather boot ng kapitan para hindi dumulas ang leather boot. Mas konting padding mas may shocking effect. Bago lamang siyang mananare at hindi ko pa siyang nakitang nag sapin ng traditional Filipino sapin style. Pero mas may sense ang ginagawa niya dahil pag kinabit niya ang fork knife may konting kiling ang blade kaya pag ito'y pumasok sa katawan ng manok ang labas nito ay ibang direksiyon kaya kailangan lamang one good hit. Tulad ng bayonet training pag pasok ng bayonet sa katawan ng kalaban kailangan mo pang i slash para walang buhay ang kalaban mo.

[Rigolleto]

I have tried using one piece leather sapin a long time ago while I was still using standard Filipino fork knife but I found it had a tendency to rotate around the feet causing misalignment. The idea of using a short piece of sapin under the leather is an excellent idea. I have a suggestion to those who use this knife but want to use a leather boot, Why don't glue the boot onto the feet itself, any quick drying strong glue will do the job. Superglue may not be suitable because it dries too quickly but supergel which dries in 2 minutes or 5 minute 2 part epoxy resins like Araldite will do good. It will cause no harm to the bird's feet as it is going to be there only during the fight and can be easily(?) removed after. I came across this idea when I learnt that racehorses here in New Zealand are fitted with light weight horeshoes which are just glued on prior to the race and then removed after. I'm sure this will make a very stable base to mount the fork on and the chances of it rotating are very low. The knife itself may still rotate or slip on the boot itself it but that is another story.

CAMARINES, SALAMAT ULI SA SAGOT MO. NAGTAKA AKO DAHIL AKALA KO AY MAYROON PALA AKONG KAPAREHAS SA PAGTATARI. SI JUN EVIDENTE SA GAMECOCK MAGAZINE(J'S KNIVES) ANG GUMAGAMIT PALAGI NG LEATHER BOOT AND SAPIN. MARAMI SIYANG BENTA NOON. O SIGE. INGAT..
FIS,
NEMY

Originally posted by Camarines:
ND, ang ginagamit ng kaibigan ko ay Filipino fork knife o lk. Ang konting sapin ay para lamang bigyan ang leather boot ng kapitan para hindi dumulas ang leather boot. Mas konting padding mas may shocking effect. Bago lamang siyang mananare at hindi ko pa siyang nakitang nag sapin ng traditional Filipino sapin style. Pero mas may sense ang ginagawa niya dahil pag kinabit niya ang fork knife may konting kiling ang blade kaya pag ito'y pumasok sa katawan ng manok ang labas nito ay ibang direksiyon kaya kailangan lamang one good hit. Tulad ng bayonet training pag pasok ng bayonet sa katawan ng kalaban kailangan mo pang i slash para walang buhay ang kalaban mo.

[Kidd Sentencia]

Rigolleto, the glue thing sounds like has merit. Anyone dare to try? with KFC-type manoks first of course. One thing to remember, most glue has hallucinating effect as the world has seen those poor kids in Manila, snipping their life away. The cock might just say "peace" and offer it's under arm...hehehe.

Kidd

[Rigolleto]

Kidd,

I you are worried about the effect of glue on your bird, (notice I did not suggest rugby)try 3M double sided tape instead, I'm sure it will do the job as it is quite sticky and should be strong enough to hold the boot in place, easier to remove as well.
I now use a different knife so this is no longer an issue to me. For some who are using traditional fork knives and sapin, the only way to minimize misalignment is make sure the paunan (which I think is the weakest link in this setup, it is prone to collapsing and this is the most common source of blade rotation especially among beginners), has a solid base and stable foundation. Make the sapin as sticky as possible by having enough gum (pagkit) on it and then rubbing it briskly between your fingers before using to heat it especially when the weather is cool, sufficient tension must be then be applied when wrapping and when layering, make sure each fold is flat and made to stick to each other by pressing down on each with enough pressure. The paunan which could be made of rolled sapin or ready made pieces of light wood like balsa or bamboo should be placed over the prepared base. I used to insert a small triangular block of balsa under last wrap where the backing for paunan will rest to brace and stabilize it. Bindings are then applied, again the idea is to have enough cross overs and counterlocks to keep the fork from twisting on the sapin. This is the next weak link of the chain, the standard fork gives only 3 anchor points, the tips of the fork and the bast of the blade. There tips are perfect for this but to use the blade as the 3rd anchor forces us to bind at 45 degree angles which to me are not very efficient. The fork can still twist or move sideways in this area, this is actually the fulcrum where all the forces acting on the blade are concentrated. You can make the bindings tighter but this does not really solve the problem, also this may restrict the flow of blood on the cock's feet and cause you an even bigger problem. The tips of the fork are really secure because most of interlock and counterlock bindings here are directly opposite each other. I overcame this problem by having a small horn like protrusion made on each fork near the base, just under the spur, which I use as my anchor points in this area. The back of my fork is also not flat and smooth but it has rows of small pointed nubs or spikes which actually dig into the sapin and locked themselves in which I believe would resist twisting better. Again, this are my opinions only, I welcome any comments or suggestions.

Also, please post your ideas on how to prevent cut bindings, with the amounts being bet on nowadays, it will be good if we can minimize this problem. It makes me sick to the stomach to see a rooster with a knife dangling off its foot after the first buckle.

[victe]

Rigolleto...
If you tie tightly the right tip of the fork knife and the top tip of the paunan. (as tight as the string would allow).
you would make the fork and the paunan as if they are one,thus,minimizing the probability of collapsing. A lot of mananare failed to do this. I just shake my head for if a three years old cock happens to hit the ground before hitting the opposing chicken, the paunan collapse is inevitable.

WRT cutting of binding, though it is not a usual occurence it happens when all the odds is in your favor and when you think you can bet your ancestral home for your ace chicken. I would always make a point in all of my endeavor to control the factors that are within my control and those that I could not, pray to the above for blessing. In our sports, you have the control of your bloodlines, conditioning, feeding, pointing,and prevention of foul play. The only point you cannot control is how your chicken would deal with the opponent given its freedom after proper release.
In my opinion, we can further protect the traditional binding of the sapin if we further wrap it with a thin leather about 3/32" thick wrap joint by the interlocking fiber plastic? I dont know the exact name. Addtional string would further put it in place.

[Kidd Sentencia]

I figure the "paunan" is the piece of wood or bamboo that is used to support or as a
lay-on (sandalan) of the right fork of a knife. If you will tie this to the fork, it will be tough to wrap it under the sapin or boot properly. If you use a double stick 3M, it should replace the sapin...again the paunan placement will be a problem, unless you're sure the double side tape can handle the pressure. If you use sapin also, your piling up...that's not good. I'll stick to my sticky sapin, paunan, leather boot, strings, and electrical tape...of course the deadly knife tied into an awesome killing machine (I wish).

Kidd

[victe]

The tying of the Tip the right tip of the fork and the toptip of the paunan is already a practice and is done last after the sapin, the sandalan and the fork knife are set properly. Unless no space is provided by the mananari between the "sapined" shanked and the paunan, tying is difficult. In my opinion. this important part of the "ceremony is taken for granted due to the mentality of most mananari that the knocking the fork knife off position can happen anyway if the cock will hit the ground.

[victe]

I would like to thanks all cyberfriends for contributing their expert experiences and as well as new opinion to this thread, I know this will enlightened some of the old sabungeros and as well as the beginners. As this topic whether you like it or not a perennial question to ponder every time you lose a gallant ace cock. (hehehe!) The only thing I'm sure you can benefit from this thread (if you have read it at all) is that you can forget about it and be confident that when you release your cock its all the effort of your bloodlines in winning or losing their fight and non of the weapon's fault.

Bye and Mabuhay!!! (ang manok ninyo!)

[This message has been edited by victe (edited 12-14-2000).]

[victe]

To: Sentenciador/admin

Pwede palang mag- "BACK TO THE FUTURE" dito! Nababago ko ang nakalipas. hehehe!

Malayo na ang naabot ko binago ko ang nakalipas sabi ko doon. " ako ang pinakapogi sa website na ito!!! Walang pumalag ni isa! hehehe! ulit. Hindi nag-e-expire ang editing power ko!

Hali na kayo: Back To The future!

[victe]

cokeko'to cokeko'to:lol:

[Sundowner]

Regardless of whatever material you use in tying is a matter of prudent judgment. I agree with brother Emoy and others about innovative ideas for receptive improvement in this aspect. Proper pudding is paramount to achieve desired setting regardless of material used whether a boot or traditional pudding or sapin with paunan. I prepare using traditional cloth pudding with sufficient sticky staff to minimize misalignment. Rub the cloth pudding against smooth wood object to create friction for optimization. With the use of paunan, I have enough leverage to adjust the knife to my prepared angle. This is a matter of personal preference. The ring itself contribute in securing and sometimes serve as an additional weapon. However, it can be cumbersome to some extend if the pudding is too bulky. To rationalize my contentions is to adhere to what I firmly believe and whatever work for you stick with it. In this case, it works for me with satisfaction. Adios amigos. My one cent input.

[filamforks]

"Whatever works for you, stick with it".........sonny


Sonny,

Although the long cotton wrap(sapin) is now a piece of history for me, I would just like to let you know that what you just stated is a very sound advise. I thank you for all your worthy contributions. Members like you makes this website worth visiting.
If I may add some words of wisdom especially to beginners , never stop trying to learn new things for the better.

Y'all have a nice day.

filamforks

[Sundowner]

Filamfork,
Thanks you for the compliments. Just trying to share my limited knowledge on these sport which I consider beneficial to others especially young cockers so they may prosper.

[filamforks]

You're welcome Sonny.

filamforks

[victe]

The traditional Filipino fork knife...
and the traditional cotton tape sapin...

together, they were the most versatile partners!

Why not redirect our learning in this direction?

We have wondered by doing experiments, Some of us were succesful enough...

but we lost the convenience...

There were times I am rethinking my "style" of heeling.

why not take the challenge of being traditional?

Cotton tape and traditional Filipino fork knife...

Any traditional Filipino knife design and a cotton tape , together they can be set properly if we put our heart into it..


Hmmmnnn.... why not? maybe begining this day , I will go traditional and win ... alongside ..with .. our very own heritage!

Ganoon na siguro ang mga tumatanda... getting mellow just like the wine....

:lol:

[Camarines]

You are right on the money Victe. Just think if you are heeling a rooster without a spur. You have to put an artifical spur like rubber to heel the rooster. I saw Mang Pitong heel a no spur rooster. All he did was tie the cotton tape around the rooster's leg where the spur is and made a knot. He then was able to continue wrapping the cotton tape and tie the knife. I bet they don't teach this method in the cocking school.

[Sundowner]

I had been involved in heeling no spur, right leg, baw-baw and sad-ang with traditional Filipino Fork Knife. So far no misalignment of the knife, meaning it all boils down to the use of proper pudding or sapin with consistence adhesiveness. The idea is to secure the knife in place contingent to your prepared angle. For the sad-ang or baw-baw, I used a shorter high point knife to compensate for the prescribed length. However, when tying two knives as partida, I tie shorter knife on the right leg. This is to avoid both knives getting hung to each other. It’s effectiveness is second to none. I will not recommend using botana in no spur not unless you want your rooster to commit suicide, he he. My one cent idea.

[peatree]

:rbounce:

[ligas_paka2006]

[lybamba]

Thanks for sharing nice info.