Hello everyone!
I have a question for those amoung us who breed (and fight) Asil grades.
How do you breed your Broodfowl in the initial cross? Asil cock over speed hen? Or visa-versa? I've been told by a very re****ble breeder to do it the first way, Asil cock over American or speed fowl hen.
But I forgot to ask WHY. I was told that the 1/2 Asil 1/2 American would now be my Broodcock, and to breed him back to the American hens to produce 3/4 American 1/4 Asil Battlecocks.
Why not do it the other way? Could it be that they would pull too much to the Asil side if a 1/2 Asil 1/2 American pullet was used? (Being that the biddies take a bigger percentage of genes from the hens side). I have heard both methods being used, and was wondering what all of you thought about it.
Any input will be greatly appreciated.
Thank you,

Edwin

Ed, I am also very much curious about these Asil crosses and what makes them so good in the hands of other breeders. Countyline, who has had great winning percentages with his Asil crosses, advised me to use a pure American stag over a half American half Asil pullet. He said using another half-half as a broodcock will create offsprings that will lean heavy towards the Asil side. I guess what he was trying to say was breeding half-halfs together will not enable one to arrive at the fighting level that a half-half would have resulting from the mating of a pure Black and a pure Asil. Incidentally, I felt sorry to learn that his fine broodcock that gave him the nick to his Asil hens died. Hope this helps.

Joeseph,
Thank You very much for the reply.
I own one of Countylines Asil/Grade pullets, as do I own two Black Stags from his Black Broodcock.
Countyline is one of the people who has advised me on the breeding of Asil/Grades, But I am not so sure about breeding to the cocks side as being a dis-advantage. Maybe in the case of his Asil blood, but I have been told by another very sucessful Asil breeder to make the Grades using an Asil broodcock, and to breed the Grades using a 1/2 Asil 1/2 American Broodcock back over American hens. The advantage to this that I see, is the biddies actually pulling more to the American side even from the first cross. Why? Because the biddies take a higher percentage of their traits from the hen, therefore pulling more to the American side right off the bat.
Maybe my thinking is wrong about this, which is why I posted the question. I want to find out what the majority of Asil/Grade breeders do, then make my own decision on how to breed them.
Thanks again for the reply, I really appreciate it.

Ed, just like you, I am glad that I also have gotten a couple of Asil/Black pullets and a pure Black stag from Countyline's. From reading articles written by the more visible Asil breeders, you are right: They are using a pure Asil cock over American hens for the same rationale you stated. Well, this is just my own opinion but I frankly do not see anything wrong with you using a half Asil half American cock over
a pure American hen. Everyone has his own way of doing things. What is important is you know which direction you are taking and for the trait you plan to achieve. It would seem logical to assume that when breeding two unlike families, whichever bloodline has the greater gene ratio contribution would in fact present a greater chance of having its traits expressed in their F-1(s), theoretically speaking. But genetics has its own complexities that would surprise even the best breeder there is. Countyline has been very vocal about his many years of experimentations with different kinds of Asils and I guess he was very fortunate to find this Black American breed that would nick very nicely with his Cajun Asils. Even his F-1(s) are giving him an excellent winning percentage, something other Asil breeders were not as lucky to stumble upon with their first crossing. Which would mean more time involved finding another family that would enhance or improve what they had started with. It would sure be nice if Filipino-Okie can share with us a little of his secret with his Hammerslammers. With the Asil crosses for the long knife getting more and more popular again, we'd like to hear from you guys out there. This website is such a fine place for learning and let us learn from one another. Thanks.

Hi Edwin,

Let me try and help you. The reason you were told to breed the Asil to a speed hen is because the Asils are slow. The straight ones hardly even kick. They just peck you to death. I've bred Asil/Hatch and, boy, they su*ked! So hence the recommendation you got.

Also, they told you to make it 3/4 American 1/4 Asil. That also is good advice as you really want as little Asil blood in your battlecocks as you can, and still keep the trait you are looking for (which is accurate cutting). See, Asils are not "steel" game. The are dead game in natural fights, but they cannot take the sting of steel. So making it 1/4 is better.

Some go as far as 1/8 Asil. At that point, they hardly look Oriental at all. But it's the cutting the breeders are after. Jessie Horta of Riverside, CA has 1/8 Asil battlecocks that went 6 straight at the Araneta Slashers.

For me, Asil breeding is "advanced" breeding. When I talk to more experienced men at the pits or socials, they always tell me "don't play around with them, man." But if you know what you're doing, then you might get an edge. Me, I'll stick to "basic" breeding.

Hope that helps http://www.sabong.com.ph/UbbNonCgi/smile.gif Thanks!

Originally posted by Edwin Kubojiri:
Hello everyone!
I have a question for those amoung us who breed (and fight) Asil grades.
How do you breed your Broodfowl in the initial cross? Asil cock over speed hen? Or visa-versa? I've been told by a very re****ble breeder to do it the first way, Asil cock over American or speed fowl hen.
But I forgot to ask WHY. I was told that the 1/2 Asil 1/2 American would now be my Broodcock, and to breed him back to the American hens to produce 3/4 American 1/4 Asil Battlecocks.
Why not do it the other way? Could it be that they would pull too much to the Asil side if a 1/2 Asil 1/2 American pullet was used? (Being that the biddies take a bigger percentage of genes from the hens side). I have heard both methods being used, and was wondering what all of you thought about it.
Any input will be greatly appreciated.
Thank you,

Edwin

[This message has been edited by JC (edited 05-12-2000).]

Edwin,

The reason why most breeders will breed Asil Roosters over american hen is that you can test a Rooster and not the hen. Before i breed a Rooster I need to be sure that the Qualities that I breed him for has passed on to his offspring and so with the asil..... that is the cutting ability, it is almost impossible to test the hen for cutting ability and be absolutely sure (there are ways but thats another story) I will usually test my fowl in my backyard before I put him in the pen. I cull and select even my pure Asils (or any other bird for that matter) for cutting ability, not all asils could cut. The ones that win in the first buckle i will breed over my brownred hens and the offsprings (50/50) i will use in the gaff (after testing, I will not fight my asil grades without winning in the backyard first)I then grade this down one more generation using the roosters that again win in the first buckle over the same hen for the knife (25% asil) hope this helps and keep em game

joey

Thank you very much Joey, that made allot of sense. I have been told to use a Gaff to test for cutting, (we only fight LK) tied on the left leg like a knife, so you can test for both Gameness and cutting,(as they take longer to finish a cock.) I am intrigued by the prospect of good cutting Battlecocks using Asil grades, so much so that I have purchased a Quail sized trio of Sontonol Asils from Jerry Hamlin for use as brood fowl for next season. I do know that it is not an easy thing to get a good cross, but I am willing to put the time into it to try. I have a great family of Kelso's, and a good family of Roundheads, and I plan on experimenting with these two to produce Grade Battlefowl. I will take your advise on testing the cocks, but only after breeding the Asil pure, I do not want to risk my one and only broodcock before getting biddies from him. I am looking forward to giving the Asils a try. I really enjoy the breeding aspect of our sport, and am very proud of my birds.
I plan to end up fighting 1/4 Asils, if they work out for me.
Thank you for the reply,
Ediwn

[Kidd Sentencia]

We were able to obtain a trio of asil-crossed from a big time breeder in Tarlac about 8 years ago. We were unlucky as the cock and one hen died. The remaining hen, crossed with a whitehackle/hatch, produced accurate cutters but they lack aggression. They don't initiate an attack but rather strikes back when hit. I only admire it being a deadly sharpshooter...that is if its lucky not to be hit or could withstand the opponent's first attack. We are still experimenting on this line but not our top priority.

Edwin,

With my asils I find that for the knife you need to grade them down to 1/4 and usually end up with a three way cross (brown red for speed and claret or blues for breaking ability) for the gaff I find that 50/50 is better than 1/4, if we ever end up in the drag my bird will always hunt for the head. I have been fortunate as I always lose the single stroking qualities after only one generation ( not that single stroking is bad, most of best birds are single strokers). The only problem I have with the Asils is that they take up a lot of space as I have to seperate them at 4 weeks of age and I can only single mate them as I cannot keep two hens without them killing each other in one pen. My Asils are the gentliest creature you can ever raise, I have not had one that was manshy or a manhater.

What I like about the Asils is the way they throw their feet out and you can always see when they connect. the Asils that I have are the Sonatols direct from India, I also have a few Saipans that could be mistaken for them. keep em game

joey

Edwin,

Just to add on testing them, use 1 inch gaffs. when testing for cutting ability there is no need to put gaffs on the opponent(you dont want to lose broodcock), I usually buy birds from the flea market and select fast looking birds (dark ones). keep em game

joey

[Edward Catahay]

What has been successful for me is to use the half asil on the cock side bred to hens of American bloodlines. Keep the females from this mating and breed them to your favorite speed fowl. Keep the hens that give out good ace cocks. I know this takes time but I think it's worth waiting for. Good luck.
Ed

breeding the asil grades, assuming that you have a dead game asil cock and the fighting style to go with it, asil cock to american breed hens, and bring the asil blood down form 1/8 to 3/8's, depending as to what american strain (BLOOD LINE) your breeding it too. normally the asil grade blood is stronger than the american fowls, and that is the reason why we bring it down to this proportion. the biggest trick is to find the one strain or combination of strains (blood line), that will nick or blend to your asil grade. just be aware that when breeding gamefowl, what works on the cock side of the family, will also work on the hen side.
yfis

Hey Wassup Edwin..hopes this helps u well what i was told from a friend that been in cockfighting over 20 years is on breeding like ....Hatch over a Kelso Hen when the offspring comes out 1/2 1/2 take the son breed him to the mom take the Daughter and breed her the the dad..the off spring of that should be 3/4 1/4 take them breed brother and sister of the best...the off spring of that breed them to the original mother and father...that offspring should be your mark....hope this helps u ..k-den

Everyone


I have this question to all Asil breeders:

Asil cant be fought pure, its has some undesirable traits. Thats why we cross them to american fowls to obtain a more desirable battle cock.

Can this undesirable traits be transfered to the off springs?
If the answer is NO, so where will the undesirable traits go?

Air Force 1,
If the undesirable traits you speak of are the "neck fighting" and "wing ducking", well, you can't really get rid of them. Some families of Asil should never be crossed for these reasons. The Boles brothers did allot of experimentation with many Asil Families, and culled all that shown these traits. In other words these Asil were bred for steel, not boxing. To my knowledge, there are only a few "small" Asil families that are suitable for crossing for LK. These families hit to the body, not only the head and neck, and are faster than the "large" Asils used for naked heel. I have heard that the Boles Asil of Matt McDaniel are very fast for Asil, and are steel game as well. They have been bred away from the naked heel style fighting, yet retain the qualities we look for when developing Battle crosses, body, station, power, and above all, cut. Not all Asil are suitable for crossing, and I feel that great care should be taken in choosing an Asil family to breed. I have just purchased a young trio of Sonotal Asils from Jerry Hamlin, that I will be breeding pure and crossing over my American hens next season. I plan on breeding them down to 8ths, with my Showtime Kelso's, Pope RH's, and Red Fox Hatch. Many tell me that the Hatch are too slow a breed to cross to the Asil, but I feel the RF are exceptionally fast for Hatch, and I'm hoping that they will nick.
Thanks for your input to the post,
Edwin

[Edward Catahay]

Hi folks,
Please allow me to add more food for thought about asils. Asils are gamefowl bred originally bred for naked heel, tape fighting etc. However, as in any breeding program selection is the key, and a solid foundation can save the breeder a lot of time in meeting the goal of breeding the superior battle cock. Let me digress a bit. A friend of mine had a pure black breasted red asil that was matched into a spangled imported gamecock. I heeled him with a high point knife. Now most of you are probably thinking that it was a long fight. Not. It was one of the quickest fight on record. The asil met his opponent's challenge in the air and his foe hit the ground lifeless. The owner of the imported rooster remarked that the knife had entered the front and penetrated through the back, nearly splitting his bird in two. If I can get pure asils that fight like that, I'll have no need to cross him. To get to the point, my advice is to be on the lookout for asils that have no fault in terms of fighting. This way you don't have to wait too long to find the right percentage in your crosses. Don't mess them up by breeding them to anything that suits your fancy. Find a family of American gamefowl that can end it in one fly and don't look for a billhold, then cross them to the asil that fights the same way.
Edward

it was through long breeding experiences of many americans that tell that the best way to do it is to breed a good asil cock over a solid winner producing proven american hen.best if you can find a medium size,round short bodied ,fast asil cock.i mean the speed type of asil that has excellent cutting ability.now look for a combination of both speed and power american hen to cross with.a friend of mine onced used a cross of blue/yellow legged hatch hen that was mated to a good round short bodied fast asil.the offsprings were all fought with great success.breeding further on the "hen side" that would produce 3/4 american 1/4 asil could be fought in long knife with good winning percentage.avoid using big type of asils.

[bvhal331]

quote fm JC;
For me, Asil breeding is "advanced" breeding. When I talk to more experienced men at the pits or socials, they always tell me "don't play around with them, man." But if you know what you're doing, then you might get an edge. Me, I'll stick to "basic" breeding.

I'm just a neophyte in breeding but would like to experiment in breeding Asils. Though they said it's already considered an "advanced breeding", I really would like to try it.

My question is; were can i buy asil broodhens to cross with my hatch grey or imported (daw) roundhead?

Edwin, I have purchased a couple of grade hens that are 1/4 Hamlin Roundhead, 1/4 Hamlin Asil, 1/2 Doc Robinson Hatch. The man I bought these from got his brood stock direct from Mr. Hamlin. I will cross my 1/4 Boles Asil 3/4 Marsh butcher cock over these hens and see what I get.
The reason I'm not going to cross over an American speed hen is because he is already fast enough as well as having plenty of bottom. I have bred him that way in the past but too many of the asil qualities are lost. When I breed him back to his daughters they come out just right, but I need to get some new blood in the mix before things start going downhill. I hope these hens will give me the right nick. If they don't, I will continue the search until I find what I am after.
When I bred my pure Asil cocks over American speed hens in the beggining If the 50/50s didn't hold up to the competition with "brand name birds" I culled them. I didn't see any point to watering down bad Asil qualities with speed hens just to try and gain a little power. I think that is what a lot of people are doing when they have to breed down to 1/4 or less to get what they see as satisfactory.
If they don't fight well as 1/2 breeds then I think you will never have anything better than average fowl. After I get good 1/2 breeds I take them down further because the stags mature faster and gain higher station.
I have bred american cocks over good asil hens in the past and the results are less than desirable. I don't know why this is. everyone has opinions on the subject but I'm not going to waste my time wondering. I just know it doesn't work for me.

[ligas_paka2006]

[kogmohon]

at 1/2 & 1/2 you can hardly see any asil on my boles/sonatol asil over my boles black...i will test them at the ngba stag derby this
year...

[hagodista]

:hippie: We always use the asil hen .

[clickfish]

kogmohon
i was told the same way too about them Boles blacks as most boles here have parawakan blood. The simple smooth head black chickens have more boles blood than the ugly boles jap looking fowl.

[juan sabungero]

depending on the needs of the breeding program as it
progresses . . .

selection plays a vital role. select base on the direction
of your target breeding program


i.e.
some breeders want to retain the body conformation of
the asil while some want to hide it as much as possible.

[Dynamite asil]

NICE Topic keep them coming.

I do it either the cock or the henside its a matter of trial and result. I like it better if both side carries some asil blood it maintain it oriental looks

[eastcoast]

Great info guys.

[irishcutt]

I bred an Asil cock over Mclean hens and now making three ways by putting a Claret cock over the 1/2 and 1/2 hens. Plus Im putting a HIenie Yellow legs over some of the Asil/Mclean hens. One thing I noticed about the 1/2 and 1/2 crosses. All of them came yellow legged. Not one green legged stag out of the Hatch/Asil cross. These Asils are genetically dominate over the other fowl. Even the Asil/ Chocolate Grey is all yellow legged. Since the Chocolates are green legged 100%!!! Im putting a Morgan Whitehackle over these pullets next breeding season. All my breeding instructions came from some of the best Asil breeders alive today and in the past. Some of my info comes from men who wrote the book AsilMania and others who have bred and fought Asils for over 50 years. Another cross that Ive seen and gonna use is an Asil hen under an Albany cock. Then Im gonna breed an Allen Roundhead cock over the pullets over the 1/2and 1/2 pullets outta the Asil/Albany. Now my asils are the supposedly small Steelgame asils and not those big gawky Asils some folks have. A man who raised these asils fought them pure in the gaff to test them. I hope the three-way crosses work out for me like the 1/2 and 1/2's did for me and others.

[ninjasil]

i obtained a family of blk rampuri small 5 pounders that are heads up leg fighter strong and deadgame i tested the pure stags at 16 mo they are very fast and very aggressive i was told by the breeder of these to use american cock over the asil hens they are fantastic i also bred american hen to asil cock fantastic but it changes here i was told to breed the 1/2 and 1/2 pullets from the americn cock over asil hen breeeing to pure american heres my brood pens that produced fantastic killing cutting marksman type fowl who never seem to be out of position and time the other rooster perfectly glen justiss cock over lacy/asil , albany/asil, leiper/asil bennett grey cock over chet/asil leiper/ asil and lacy /asil leiper cock over 2 chet/asil produce great i follow the breeing instructions of man i got them from and it wrked to the t for me the brothers to the half asil pullets i used were great but their sister offspring being 1/4 were awesome built like a lacy rh but strong as a mule no wasted movements and dead game i tried the popular method of a asil over my lacy and leiper lines and at 1/2 they can fight anywhere but their sisters didnt produce as good as the reverse breeding of american cock to asil hens to get my half blood pullets to breed also always test your asil in steel no matter where or how much they cost also try different lines mclean was a so so cross for me yfis

[Rolei]

are roundhead cock do good if cross to asil hens.

Originally Posted by ninjasil

i obtained a family of blk rampuri small 5 pounders that are heads up leg fighter strong and deadgame i tested the pure stags at 16 mo they are very fast and very aggressive i was told by the breeder of these to use american cock over the asil hens they are fantastic i also bred american hen to asil cock fantastic but it changes here i was told to breed the 1/2 and 1/2 pullets from the americn cock over asil hen breeeing to pure american heres my brood pens that produced fantastic killing cutting marksman type fowl who never seem to be out of position and time the other rooster perfectly glen justiss cock over lacy/asil , albany/asil, leiper/asil bennett grey cock over chet/asil leiper/ asil and lacy /asil leiper cock over 2 chet/asil produce great i follow the breeing instructions of man i got them from and it wrked to the t for me the brothers to the half asil pullets i used were great but their sister offspring being 1/4 were awesome built like a lacy rh but strong as a mule no wasted movements and dead game i tried the popular method of a asil over my lacy and leiper lines and at 1/2 they can fight anywhere but their sisters didnt produce as good as the reverse breeding of american cock to asil hens to get my half blood pullets to breed also always test your asil in steel no matter where or how much they cost also try different lines mclean was a so so cross for me yfis

[pol paks]

more info pls,tnx